The "Age of Innocence"

[Prozerran]

No, I'm not referring to literature or theatrics. Plain and simple, I'm talking about the innocence of our youth, and more to the point, in reference to violence. To elaborate where this all comes from:

I was watching American Justice tonight on A&E. If you've never watched the show, it covers controversial court cases and, well, American Justice - hence the name. This particular episode dealt with the Jonesboro massacre in Arkansas where two boys (13 & 11) pulled a fire alarm, ran out to the woods behind their school, and opened fire on the crowd of students and teachers exiting the building - killing 5 young girls and a teacher.

This event preceded the infamous Columbine shooting in Colorado, and American Justice sort of tried to explain the causes of such horrific acts by young people. To summarize, the combined causes are asserted to be as follows:

Violence Portrayed in the Media
Youth Access to Firearms
A Stimulus to Act Upon (such as earlier psychological trauma, bullying, etc.)
While a common thread exists in these acts, I believe this to be a rather dry, unimaginitive and ultimately insufficient explanation. I am of the opinion that the problem is much, much deeper in our education system - something that cannot be solved by simply adding metal detectors and bomb sniffing dogs in our schools. I assert that the broader problem lies in education, and that's where the "age of innocence" comes in.

What is this age that so many people apply to children? It's like this magical aura that surrounds children to protect them from all the negative encounters children will eventually have to face. Sure, we hope they never suffer fear or become tainted by the grotesque reality of life - that people die. I am of the opinion, however, that we are not educating children fast enough, we are not exposing them - preparing them - for social interraction. They don't know, and it's because we dawn this shroud over their eyes to protect them from what we feel they are not ready to understand. Censorship.

It's funny to me that people blame the media for portraying violence when they're the only ones exposing children to it. It's obviously not ok to sit your child down in your lap and watch Faces of Death or some other glorified gore-seeking documentary, but it's also not ok to put them in front of the TV, turn on Pokemon or Inuyashi (sp?) and allow them to incorporate that kind of imaginitive violence in their mind, then turn around and blame the media because some child committed murder. It's just not that simple.

What is simple is this: our education system is such that children aged from 11-17 are entertained and even act out the violence portrayed in the media for their own entertainment. As in, they have nothing better to do than run around and pretend to kill one another because that's what stimulates them. That's what draws the line between fun and boredom. Cops and robbers looks cute when 3 year olds are running around with little water pistols. It's not so cute when your kid's doing it at the age of 14.

It begs the question, why are children not being stimulated in our education system? I remember my first day of 2nd grade going into class all nervous because some older neighbor of mine warned me that I would start having lots of homework. I remember being focused and intent on not falling behind, not getting a bad grade, and staying ahead. I went home with five words to handwrite - nothing. I was done in five minutes. Then I went out and played in the dirt. How anti-climactic.

And this continued even into high school where I eventually became lazy - bored and disinterested in learning because I was learning the same grammar, vocabulary, and mathematics I'd been learning since I was in 5th grade. The monotony is said to form a "foundation" for further education... right. When I asked my 6th grade teacher toward the end of the year why she hadn't taught us anything new, she put me in detention. I never asked again.

I'm sorry if anyone disagrees, but the "No Child Left Behind" movement is possibly the worst thing to have happened to our education system. It's not that I'm rooting for survival of the fittest or rewarding those that do well and otherwise punishing those that don't. The criteria for entering college on a scholarship is depressingly easy, especially if you're an athlete. One cannot know what it means to succeed if they've never failed. And this movement to pick those up that are moving through the education system at a slower rate and nurse them through it is just hurting them... they don't know what it is to succeed because the criteria for their education gets dummied down.

This, of course, does not apply to those with learning disabilities, which is why there are educational programs available to them that are geared toward their learning curve - proven to be successful in integrating those with learning disabilities into a collegiate path and making education less discriminatory.

The public education curriculum lets so many people down in encouraging people to learn. Teachers throw vocabulary, grammar, math, and science at students without ever really giving students some explanation as to why they need to know it. To compound the problem, students don't need to have it regurgitated to them for eight years of their pre-collegiate education. It's sickening to think I spent that long learning a total of about one year's worth of material over the span of 8 years... and truthfully, if you disagree, think back to how many times you learned about the solar system... if it's more than twice, you got ripped off because there's not that much to grasp. If it really caused you problems, get a tutor - no offense.

I know this seems a bit like ranting and maybe veering off topic, but when I come back to these horrific events - the combination of psychological trauma, access to weapons, and violence portrayed in the media, I think, "wow, how sad it is that our children don't know a better solution than to go out and shoot other people." I find it even more saddening that grieving parents come along asking what could bring some child to kill another child, since I believe the answer to be all too clear.

Unfortunately, the problem is perpetuated further. Our public school systems have no choice but to repeat the material over and over again because we perpetuate this "age of innocence." We decide that a child should not be exposed to something that maybe they are ready to understand and process. When high school literature teachers are restricted from having students read books with a great deal of explicit material, where does the public school system expect these students to become exposed to and process that material? Hell, most high school students have already been exposed to that material and then some. But then, what does it matter, because at that point, they're so unstimulated that they could care less what they learn.

I know this may hit home to many, it might outrage you that I express these views, but honestly, it has to be said. I plan to start a family in the not-so-distant future, and I hate to think that I'm sending my children to their "stupification" in the public school system. I want my children to be eager to learn, challenge themselves, and be able to think in a problem-solving manner... not be brow-beaten by 12 years of repetitive "foundational" nonsense. Am I the only one that sees this as a problem or as a fundamental correlation to the kind of violence we've seen in our public schools?

[Murkyith15]

Ah yes. The 3/4s of the year spent relearning what you learned last year. Sometimes more than that. Heck, that bored me to tears... Actually, it still does...

[GenocideAlive]

...maybe I've been playing too much Nation States, but I firmly believe that the vast majority of the high school education system should be a government-subsidied private industry. I'm sure tons of people would say something "OMFG SOCIAL STRATIFICATION!1!" But frankly, I don't give a shit.

At least 50-60% of kids in schools (the 10-15 that I've been in the past ~3 years) don't want to be there. They'd rather be off smoking, drinking, or screwing off in some other corner--their education is the furthest thing from their mind. And so whenever they're stuck in a classroom with a few dozen other kids, it only makes things worse. The first thing they do is start trying to find someone else to talk / distract / bother.

You can discipline them, but the funny part is that it rarely accomplishes anything besides a resentment for being punished. Their parents get snotty and tell you that it's your job to babysit their kid and motivate them besides. I think it'd put the ball back in the parents' court if they had to pay or go through a selection process to get Jr. through school.

In America, people only pay attention when you fuck with their money. Otherwise, the school system is just a never-ending bueracracy of impotence and hassle.

[Yoda]

Ironic - When I was in primary school, I had no idea and neither did anyone else, or what the entire purpose was in school or learning or education. I was probably too young/ignorant to see it. It was kind of only in Year 8 where the entire TEE/uni/job thing came into focus. But before that I would have definately taken the opportunity, if given, to take a huge amount of time off school.

Well for the "maths" section, from year 3 to year 8, I was doing this enrichment maths program called "Kumon." And henceforth I knew EVERYTHING we EVER did in maths up until half way through year 10. So it was a very dull and boring show up until then. And English, after year 3 (which that and the 2 years before it were learning how to read/phonetics etc etc) we never seemed to learn anything in English classes at all.

And all the science that we did was completely irrelevant to the science done now short of writing up aim/materials/method/hypothesis/results/conclusion. And the S+E had no relevance at all.

[Neo]

I find it interesting that you don't mention parents at all. Parents have to take some responsibility in this. You can't blame the kids -- its not thier fault.

We have an aging education system that hasn't changed fundamentally in litterally centuries.

I watched this special about some radical education leader (some superintendant from somewhere) who took failing schools and turned them around to be some of the best in thier state. He took the measures needed (firing idiots who couldn't teach worth a damn), listened to teachers and what the needed, and explained what needed to be down differently.

I've been saying this for awhile now, and I will continue to say it, our education system sucks. Its no wonder that home schooled kids are so much smarter -- they aren't taught the same shit with varying degrees of difficulty for 8 years.

As for kids being violent and blaming the media -- thats total bullshit. If the parents were more involved, if the schools did more to prevent harrasment, the list goes on. But media is not the cause (how you get kids killing people from Inu Yasha or Pokemon is beyond me -- I would be more tempted to blame shows like RealTV/MaximumTV whatever the hell thats called, hell the news -- and now the internet -- Things available to children when they get on the internet would probably shock most of thier parents.

But becuase parents don't know any better... They don't do anything about it. THeres a difference between watching animated violence, and watching some prisoner get decapitated.

One is real, the other is not. Children should be able to discern the difference when they reach a suitable age (ie: like 10-12 I would think is reasonable) and realize that violence is not the answer.

But when you take one kid who is taunted and teased and harrassed for years and years -- and the schools do nothing -- and the parents don't seem to care -- whats left for this child to do?

There are many people who spout the same old bullshit that "teasing is a part of growing up..." and that kids who can't take it are weak or w/e.

Well I hope these people get a phone call some day in the future that the kid thier kid teased and taunted for years finally snapped. Ok thats a bit harsh... But you see what I am getting at right?

No child left behind?

The answer to that is, what about the child who is ahead?

Rambling...

I think its wrong to blame the media, it might be a small part, but parents are also to blame, and are a major factor in it. On top of that Schools need to take a more active role in preventing harrasment. I have seen kids being teased unmercilessly right under a school's official nose -- and they didnt try to stop it, they didnt even say anything. Seriously, where do schools find these people?

I still say I would rather have a kid playing a FPS fragging people/monsters in virtual reality then going out and doing it for real.

-Neo

[Spartan-II]

Luckily here in Oregon, harassment is illegal in schools. A friend last year got suspended for a week for calling a Freshman a fag and pushing him. (He was a Senior. And the main rason it's illegal is because of the Thurston high shooting.)

As a participant in our school systems, I recognize the problems we face. My school is lucky, we have enough money to finance alot of extracurricular activites, and alot of elective choices. (Woodshop, Welding, Auto, ec.) The problem is, as Prozerran so elequently stated, we're learning the same things OVER and OVER. The only classes I learn anything in are German, Biology, and some in History. In English, we're doing speeches, again. In Math, we're doing things related to the Pythagorean theorum. (Which I did last year, along with some Trig.) In American history, we just got over WWI which we did in depth last year. (He just told us to be prepared for a 55 question test.)

I've started to get really bored with school, and thus slacked off last quarter. (That's besides the point though.) I've realized that I can't rely on the material to motivate me. I have to have an exceptional teacher or a strong will to get top grade just to be semi-interested.

Genocide also has a point. Alot of the kids in my school are only in class so they can get their drivers license, (Being enrolled is a requirement for a Drivers license if you're under 18.) and so their parents aren't on their back.

Parents have to take some responsibility in this. You can't blame the kids -- its not thier fault.

So you're saying it's the parents fault that their children score D's and F's? I don't care how my mom feels about my schooling. I'm going to do what I please one way or another, no matter the consequences, and that's the way 80% of my school feels. (Then there are the rich kids who get 400$ for striaght A's..)

The parents do have some responsibility, though. If they cared about their childrens educations, they would punish the shit's for getting bad grades. (I'm not talking no TV, i'm talking spanking the hell out of them with a tree branch or something, and then grounding them to their room with no TV's, games, computer access, or phone privileges until their grades go up.) Blaming the media for violence in children is ignorant and counterproductive. Instead of the parents not allowing their children to watch something violent, they sit there and let them watch it, and then turn around and blame the TV stations for airing the content. If they don't like it, they can change the channel, not buy them the game, or shoot their kids in the head so they won't have to experience the evil world. Being exposed to violence and sex is a part of growing up, but things need to be put in context. I watched Hellraiser, Friday the 13th, and alot of other gory horror flicks with my father when I was 8 years old. He was intelligent enough to explain to me that these things weren't real, and that under no circumstances should I ever do them. He put things into context, and I got it. He also spanked me when I did something I wasn't supposed to. I haven't done most of those things since.

[singo]

You can't blame the kids -- its not thier fault.

No, you can, Anything anyone does is their "fault" The children ARE to blame.

The question IS, what can be done to stop them say, grabbing their dads gun and going for the roof....Okay, extreme example there, I know it doesnt happen often (once is TOO often however, but lets stay focused).


Children should be pushed at school, and hard. There is nothing worse for getting an education than the "I have until next friday for this...loads of time" With corporal punishment for disobeying the rules.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying the only way to motivate a child is to threaten them. Obvioulsy, with soem decent parents the child will have been raised to not be nasty and vindictive (much, I know small kids are right bastards for that) and to do as they are told. Which, much as people whine about the rights of children, IS important for an educational establishment.

Now, back to the keeping children busy. Firstly, Selection. I know no politicina would ever DARE say it aloud, but the 11+ and grammar schools ARE a good way to keep the ability groups seperate. A much better way than dragging the high acheivers down until they reach the level of the lowest.

Also, the aforementioned grammar schools (as long as they are not gender seperated, that just leads to crude jokes from both the high and low acheivers, trust me, I went to an all boys school) will attain a near mythical status among the lower acheivers at the comprehensive schools, giving those children something to work towards. Clear goals are much better than simply "getting so and so percent on this random test"

also, teach interesting things. Algebra proper from year six. British history (or local equivalent for you colonials :P) at primary schools, then most major wars in the last thousand years TIED IN with trade growth, population movements, development and other historical things. Lets face it, children are interested in wars.

Quantum physics for reception...okay, that was taking the piss. But you know what I mean, Always keep them moving forward, never backward.

Now, the media. blaming videogames/films/whatever does not really have much of a basis, UNLESS such things are easily available to underage people. Which they shouldnt be. I am pretty sure a five year old shouldnt be watching say, Kill Bill or what have you. And I dont think any of you could disagree.

However, it would ALSO help if the media didnt flash hours of footage of a place where mr [insert name here] went postal at this school in whereverthefuck killing ten people, three dogs and a hamster.

That just makes it seem like a good way to get people to notice you.

Bullying. Isn't going to be stamped our and is in a way related to the media point above. Cane. No more problem.

Also, for fucks sake lets have at least SOME firearms restrictions eh? But THAT is for another thread.

[Neo]

Completely missing my point.

Children don't exist in a fucking vaccuum. You can't expect them to be perfectly behaved little adults.

The school system needs to be reformed. Thats all there is to it.

You have some teachers who are completely incompetant, and others who aren't allowed to actually teach... I mean seriously, no wonder the kids are fucked up.

Not to mention all the social pressure on whats acceptable and whats not.

-Neo

[Spartan-II]

Maybe if you would make your points and position known better, people wouldn't miss them, eh?

[Prozerran]

Completely missing my point.

My sentiments exactly.

Listen folks, we're not talking about who is at fault. We can all agree that violence in the media isn't a principle cause of violence in schools. We can debate on whether parents should take or not take a more active role in their child's education, and we can dance around bullying, harassment, or w/e you want to call it and how that impacts students. The material I posted to that extent was merely offered to set the stage for discussion. We all agree that the education system sucks. Hell, if you want horror stories:

A pre-requisite to be a teacher at Seymour High School in Seymour, TN (at least when I was in High School) is that you must coach an athletic sport or (in the case of arts) coach some extracurricular group activity. Obviously, the history teacher that can actually teach the subject is overlooked in favor of the teacher that can coach track and field. Really. It happened.

The problem is with these experts that seem to convince these school systems that there are warning signs and precautions to be taken. This is just not so. I don't care how much you analyze it, the problem has little to nothing to do with the media, parents, or some traumatic event the child has been afflicted with in their life. My life as a high school student was just as horrible, but the immaturity of my fellow students didn't bring me to a point of homicidal tendency. I think the contributing factor to my depression in high school was the quintessential element of my education, that it, in and of itself, was worthless.

And so people go off and blame the media. They go off and blame gun control. They go off and seek some kind of psychological factor that may play a contributing role in these violent acts. These same people then go off and try to censor material from students that may actually positively influence them... inspire them... challenge them to think for themselves... nurture their desire to learn. It's disgusting.

You look back in history to the time of slavery. What were slaves "taught"? Only what they needed to know to perform their work. Now that jobs require people to actually be able to read, we stress that they learn basic reading and writing skills. Now that jobs require people to actually perform basic mathematic calculations, we stress that they learn math. Put two and two together. School systems only teach kids how to do one thing - be slaves.

If school systems actually taught children how to learn for themselves, think for themselves, there would be no need for University Education. And what do school systems encourage students to do? Go to college. Why? More money. Because not every family can afford it, not every student will go to college. No problem, because Taco Bell needs more people on their service line. Simply put, the problem with our system isn't that it's obsolete. It's that it's not there to educate. It's there to filter young people into different societal roles... much like communism without a government actually assigning jobs to citizens. Give the people only what they need to do the work we want them to do.

I think the drawback to this kind of approach can be seen now as young people start becoming violent and rebellious. School violence draws attention to public schools, just the wrong kind of attention because parents and government officials are looking for the simple answers instead of addressing the problem. This can be seen across the board as the government makes broad generalizations about what causes such problems without real evidence to back it up. Coincidence is a convenient way of detracting from having to actually analyze the whole issue.

So these kids were exposed to violent material on TV - Millions of other young people have as well.
So these kids had access to weapons - Millions of other young people have as well.
So these kids had traumatic events that affected their development - Millions of young people deal with these same issues, if not moreso, on a daily basis.
I find it unacceptable that any student with the capacity to make a choice between taking or not taking a life not be able to choose appropriately. I blame the school system, because they have not nurtured that child's desire to learn in a system whose sole purpose is to educate.

I'll finish with an anecdote.

Billy and Joey got into a fight, and Joey went to the hospital. In questioning Billy, the Principal asks, "Why did you and Joey fight?"

Billy answers, "I don't know." Billy is punished for putting Joey in the hospital.

Years later, Billy is being questioned in regards to a murder investigation. After confessing to the murder, Billy is asked why he murdered the victim.

Billy answers, "I don't know." Billy is sentenced to death by capital punishment.

What's the point? Well, Billy never really learns anything. He grows up violent, he commits a violent act, and gets the death penalty without ever knowing why he did what he did.

The only difference between this anecdote and the previously referenced school shootings is that they occur much sooner now. When we have an education system in place that's truly there to educate and nurture the desire for knowledge, we won't have children performing senseless acts of violence.

[Neo]

Prozerran my mother has been saying that for years about schools -- though instead of slaves she says something along the lines of "turning them into perfect little automatons"

Because the parents don't care, and the curriculum is so... like not even worth it, its not surprising that kids have started to snap.

What I don't get is why people continue ot harrass one another -- after the horrific school shootings you'd think they might let up a little bit, but my brother (whos in high school currently) has told me a few stories about morons (one involved someone ripping on his girlfriend -- jesus talk about something thats so not smart to do).

But then if you grow up in a home where your father is a racist pig, how are you going to turn out? >_<!

And thats another thing. PEOPLE SPORTS DO NOT MEAN EVERYTHING. I got so sick and tired of seeing teachers having to reuse supplys, or other things that should have been replaced, while the sports teams all had new jerseys, coats, equipment, etc....

Meh. An old school of mine built a 1.4 million dollar gymnasium, then promptly closed after it was finished. Genius I say.

-Neo

[GenocideAlive]

I'm starting to get tired of this thread, and not because it's an unworthy topic: multiple people here are just railing on the education system. It's not working well, yes, I think that's obvious to anybody that's ever seen the school. What's the solution is the issue at hand.

Oh, you want to revamp the whole thing, huh? You want 350 billion dollars to go through every state and county in America to rework schools. Well, I want a fucking golden toilet seat. Grow up, it's not going to happen. If you want to change the way schools work, you're going to have to do it with something other than some weirdass off-the-wall belief you hold. Believe it or not, everybody thinks they have the solution to America's problems in education. Our actual problem is that we can't find one that works and the majority approves.

Kids are shooting other kids? Believe it or not, this is nothing new. It's been going on in inner-city schools for years. It didn't make the news until some middle-class white kids did it to other middle-class white kids. The basis of the teasing/hazing is rooted in oppression/descrimination behavior, which minorities have been attempting to deal with for years; it's still going on and it doesn't make the news. But NOW it's suddenly this BIG problem that's oh-so-upsetting.
I blame the school system, because they have not nurtured that child's desire to learn in a system whose sole purpose is to educate.
What the fuck does this mean? Their sole purpose is to educate, but now they need to "nurture the child's desire to learn"? What the hell does that entail? You want to learn science, sit down and shut up, I'll teach you some science. You want to inspire Billy and Timmy to stop screwing with their Magic cards and pay attention to science, you're going to need someone else. THIS is the problem with the school system--too many people trying to make it something it's not. Its sole purpose is to EDUCATE, damn right. Not fucking educate, inspire, develop, and coddle. You come to school to work, not sit around until the teacher finally inspires you and the 200 other kids she sees in a day.

Lots of people complain about how their curriculum is boring and they're just not challenged. Hate to break it to you, but that sounds a lot like life so best grow up now, kids. I see two shit-tons of people every day who think that they're ready to take on their boss' position, or deserve some kind of promotion--but they can't even get their own work done well for more than a week at a time. If you get bored easily, nobody will want you--because work isn't supposed to be this entertaining, challenging adventure despite what Dora the Explorer says on TV.

[Toucan]

I tend to agree with GenecideAlive here, the more we treat kids like Adults the more they complain we are not treating them like adult's, welcome to the world kids, everyone is not going to be a movie or rock star, your not all going to be to have awe inspiring adventures through out your lives.
The tedium you think you are experiencing at school is nothing compared to what you are going to experience in your lives, especially if you don’t pay attention and do well in school.
Most of you will do the same job for 20 straight years and the fact is for most of you, that is how you will get the things you want in life, those of you who are unable to hold down a job will never own a home or any of the other luxury’s you take for granted while you are sheltered by your parents.
When I was at school children that did not pay attention where caned, end of story and I use to consider it some thing to avoid and I am no worse off for it today, in fact in my chosen field I am quite successful. People say "oh its Barbaric to cane children for behaving poorly" but the simple fact is kids would pay more attention and step out of line less when it existed and school's have become progressively worse since the bleeding harts of the world had it removed.
I agree that the cane across the hand or an out right smack on the bum may seem harsh, but nothing else has been put in place to replace these punishments.
It's obvious that home schooled children would be better educated, the punishment for not paying attention would be allot more severe than the public school system.
It is not the parents fault either, as you said NeoX. "They don’t know - they don’t know anything about it", well how the hell are they suppose to do anything about what they don't know and what you are not willing to discuss with them.
When you do everything you can to hide from your parents any thing you do that they will disagree with they can’t do anything about it.

[Spartan-II]

I agree with Genocide and Toucan.

The kids are the ones who motivates themselves. Smacking them will keep them motivated, if only because they don't want to get smacked again. I personally know that having ones hide at stake helps you focus and pay more attention. I've come to realize that life isn't going to be the über-fun adventure movies and TV make it out to be, which is why i've started working harder. Schools aren't there to motivate. They're there to teach those who want to be taught.

[singo]

Oh, you want to revamp the whole thing, huh? You want 350 billion dollars to go through every state and county in America to rework schools. Well, I want a fucking golden toilet seat. Grow up, it's not going to happen. Dont want to sound insulting....but if no-one is willing to put the money in, nothing willl ever change. That is part of the problem.


If you want to change the way schools work, you're going to have to do it with something other than some weirdass off-the-wall belief you hold. Believe it or not, everybody thinks they have the solution to America's problems in education. Our actual problem is that we can't find one that works and the majority approves.

And whose fault is that? obvioulst then the "majority" dont give enough of a damn about it then do they? Welcome to politics.


Kids are shooting other kids? Believe it or not, this is nothing new. It's been going on in inner-city schools for years. It didn't make the news until some middle-class white kids did it to other middle-class white kids. The basis of the teasing/hazing is rooted in oppression/descrimination behavior, which minorities have been attempting to deal with for years; it's still going on and it doesn't make the news. But NOW it's suddenly this BIG problem that's oh-so-upsetting.

Did anyone say that the peoblem is only for middle class white kids? I didnt think so. If it is happening it IS a big problem, the fact nobody cared doesnt make it any less of a problem.



What the fuck does this mean? Their sole purpose is to educate, but now they need to "nurture the child's desire to learn"? What the hell does that entail? You want to learn science, sit down and shut up, I'll teach you some science. You want to inspire Billy and Timmy to stop screwing with their Magic cards and pay attention to science, you're going to need someone else.

Well done. Agree here. One point theough. Anyone caught fucking around in school. Cane. It worked for years, but nooooooo obviously making use of the instinct everyone (except one or two wierd buggers) has that leads them to avoid pain is "cruel".



Lots of people complain about how their curriculum is boring and they're just not challenged. Hate to break it to you, but that sounds a lot like life so best grow up now, kids. I see two shit-tons of people every day who think that they're ready to take on their boss' position, or deserve some kind of promotion--but they can't even get their own work done well for more than a week at a time.


Well, if they canot do it properly then obviously they ARE challenged then arnt they?

Slap a big workload on children and just dont teach the same patronising stuff year after year after year. Also, hit them if they do something wrong.

[Neo]

I tend to agree with GenecideAlive here, the more we treat kids like Adults the more they complain we are not treating them like adult's, welcome to the world kids, everyone is not going to be a movie or rock star, your not all going to be to have awe inspiring adventures through out your lives.
They aren't adults though. They shouldn't be treated as adults. Thats one of the things, did I not say "children are not miniature adults" or something? Just becuase you treat a pig like a horse doesnt make it a horse. (dont ask me where i pulled that from...)

The tedium you think you are experiencing at school is nothing compared to what you are going to experience in your lives, especially if you don’t pay attention and do well in school.
Most of you will do the same job for 20 straight years and the fact is for most of you, that is how you will get the things you want in life, those of you who are unable to hold down a job will never own a home or any of the other luxury’s you take for granted while you are sheltered by your parents.
When I was at school children that did not pay attention where caned, end of story and I use to consider it some thing to avoid and I am no worse off for it today, in fact in my chosen field I am quite successful. People say "oh its Barbaric to cane children for behaving poorly" but the simple fact is kids would pay more attention and step out of line less when it existed and school's have become progressively worse since the bleeding harts of the world had it removed.
I agree that the cane across the hand or an out right smack on the bum may seem harsh, but nothing else has been put in place to replace these punishments.
It's obvious that home schooled children would be better educated, the punishment for not paying attention would be allot more severe than the public school system.
Oh becuase in the real world people get beaten for all kinds of things while at work and stuff. I mean the kid is obviously the one with the problem so lets hit him until he gets better. (Makes you wonder how mentally handicapped children or children with learning disabilities are treated).

And wtf? You think home schooled kids get spanked fornot doing thier homework? Most people I know who went through home schooling actually ENJOYED DOING THEY WORK. THEY DIDNT NEED TO BE PUNISHED OR THREATENED OR HUMILIATED TO DO THE WORK.

Genocide mentioned that there was no answer -- well thats false. There is this really interesting Education leader (for lack of a better term) that goes around to different schools completely changing them -- even inner city ones -- so within a year they are showing some of the best scores in the state.

So obviously something is working thier (And I can tell you this -- it sure as hell isnt caning. If you want caning send your kids to catholic school or some shit).

It is not the parents fault either, as you said NeoX. "They don’t know - they don’t know anything about it", well how the hell are they suppose to do anything about what they don't know and what you are not willing to discuss with them.
When you do everything you can to hide from your parents any thing you do that they will disagree with they can’t do anything about it.
I don't fully understand this, but this is another problem. Children shouldn't feel the need to hide things from the parents -- and should feel that if they do something wrong at school thier parents will be called in to 'deal with them'.

I never hid anything from my mother, why? Becuase she was a fucking parent. She didnt just send me of to school when the time came, and punished me when I did something wrong.

I remember a time that I missed some homework (who doesnt?) and this teacher got all wierd with me, told me he was going to call my mom -- I said something like "So do it, go ahead!" and he got all wierd. As if he thought that threatening me was the answer.

Or my favorite is singling out a child who did poorly, or didnt do something? Oh yeah thats the answer. Lets all laugh at jimmy becuase he got an F on some test.

Yeah thats really motivation there.

The answer isnt money either. I really wish I could remember the name of that guy who went around reforming/restructuring schools but its been awhile. He made the schools better -- without spending much , or anymore money then they already had.

Its possible.

But advocating physically punishing a child? Wow thats the way to go. Instead of figuring out if they kid has problems preventing him/her from learning/doing the work/difficulties at home (pretty sure that when your dad is drunk hitting on your mom that youll be thinking about other things besides your homework/schoolwork), or discovering that you as a teacher didnt teach the lesson well, no lets go straight to HIT THE CHILD!!! THATS THE ANSWER.

While we are at it, lets start caning people for chewing gum. Or wearing hats. Or carrying backpacks.

Schools treat kids like fucking prisoners, so why is it that some of them snap?

Hell, when I was in school they enforced a no backpack policy.

--> WHAT THE FUCK <--

So instead of using my locker, I carried all the books I needed each day to every class as my own protest. Not that it mattered.

Oh, and while were at it, lets assume they they are also; packing guns, in possesion of drugs, alcohol, etc... or and weapons like scissors!

I'd be surprised if you could find a kid at an inner city school who wasn't already afraid. Lets go ahead and implement canings as punishments, probably can garuntee you that that would just make an already bad situation worse.

... im rambling.

So whatever, blame the kids its all thier fault, responsibility for them doesnt rely at all on thier parents, enviroment, or thier teachers at all.

-Neo

[Nuts]

Reviving our failing education system.

Part A, reducing costs.

1. All new construction must be classroom or direct support structures. No new gymnasiums, stadiums or media centers in existing schools. All new schools may be permitted a "library" of nominal size and a field in which sports may be played. All funds previously designated for previously planned new structures and events will be given back to the taxpayers.

2. Computers are an area of study, not an instrument by which every child must complete their school work. Computers will be limited to a computer class and they shall not be used in non-computer learning classes. Teachers shall not require a computer for for classwork, period. Pen/Paper will suffice and will also give students a core understanding of that rare and unique process known as "handwriting."

3. All new classroom construction will be according to local building code. However, there shall be no expenditures for custom architecture, special paint, custom logos, grossly over sized signs, etc. All classrooms must be built from a single set of prints designed to maximize space while reducing cost per square foot. Exceptions will be made only when available space does not permit for standard plans.

Portable classrooms are not the devil. Portable classrooms are perfectly suitable for education. There is no reason to complain to the media when your school is forced to buy additional portables, this is growth issue, deal with it. Build new classrooms when you have the time and budget, otherwise, make do with what you have available and stop complaining.

4. All elective coursework shall be considered "optional" and therefore will not be granted any additional funding for equipment not necessary for the education of the coursework. (i.e. no $5000 darkrooms when a closet would suffice; no endless supply of blank canvas when paper would suffice; no brand new state of the art weightlifting equipment when used equipment would suffice.)

Part B, Accountability.

1. All students will be tested annually. Any school that received an overall failing grade will be subject to individual teacher/administrator review. Reviews will be conducted by the state via a classroom monitor that will review the teacher's ability to conduct class. If a teacher is found to be unable to properly educate and/or handle his/her classroom, they will be given remedial training and given fair opportunity to compete for another teaching position. Of course, termination of employment is completely possible given the weaknesses of the individual teacher. Teachers are paid to teach, and we should treat them no different than any company would its employees. Any school that repeatedly fails will be subject to a management change (i.e. new administration.)

2. Additionally, teachers will be reminded that their salaries are less than average because they work 75% of the calendar year. Teachers will be reminded of this daily if necessary.

3. The teachers union will be disbanded, period. Unions are a waste of money and have no place in government employment.

4. The lunch room will no longer serve junk food. Our schools are not intended to malnourish our children. This is not a financial issue, but an important one nonetheless.

5. Teachers are not babysitters. If your child will not listen and do his/her homework, they will be sent home with a failing grade. The parent will be given ample opportunity to correct this behavior. If the behavior fails to cease, the child will be subject to a review by the Department of Children and Family Services. At this point the state may decide to place the child in a remedial school and/or take further action depending on the situation at home. Remedial schools will be increased security and a heavy handed approach to teaching.

I'm certain I have left out many other important ideas, but these are some of the most important.

[Neo]

I like those points, except the lunch part. Yeah its a good idea to stop junk food from being sold, but kids are just going to bring junk food anyways. Not everyone wants to eat a salad everyday for lunch.

Besides, some school lunches can't be beat XD I still remember these chicken sandwiches they had, or thier ideas of grilled cheese (lol).

The elective coursework also seems a tad harsh. Some optional courses need high end equipment -- even if its a one time expenditure. If that $5000 darkroom suitable for multiple students at a time will last for the next 20 years, then why wouldnt it be ok?

Have you ever been in portable classrooms? They are incredibly uncomfortable during the winter and summer time, having very little, or none a/c or heating (and when it hits -5 or 100 degrees its not exactly a matter of luxury).

I think painting (what do you mean by special paint?) should be allowed... Theres no reason every new school should look exactly the same...

-Neo

[Nuts]

Neo, I spent half my academic career in a portable, and I turned out ok....I think. ;)

I'll concede some of the other points with regard to electives, but with regard to the school lunch, don't you think it should be the parents making the decision on what to feed their children? I hate the idea that a student might get very wholesome meals at home while the school is serving pizza and hamburgers. Seems almost anti-educational if you ask me.

[Neo]

Neo, I spent half my academic career in a portable, and I turned out ok....I think. ;)

I'll concede some of the other points with regard to electives, but with regard to the school lunch, don't you think it should be the parents making the decision on what to feed their children? I hate the idea that a student might get very wholesome meals at home while the school is serving pizza and hamburgers. Seems almost anti-educational if you ask me.
Believe it or not, not everyone gets home cooked meals at home every night. Some kids don't get anything better at home then they would for lunch anyways. Though I do think having chains in school lunch rooms (mcds for example, I think) is a bit much. And extra things like nachos or whatever.

Parents do have a decision what to feed thier children. They can send a lunch with them, or give them money for lunch (ie: the meal). Pretty sure that a kid who only gets a set amount of money per weak equal to the max he would need for a meal and drink wouldnt try getting extra things like pizza or cheeseburgers.

And don't get me wrong, I loved going out to a portable -- just not when it was super cold out or really hot/humid out (though that was mostly becuase it was for music class... and something else -- I had fun with that at least =P)

Something I would like to throw out there, my father mentioned this to me last night, there was some kid out west who sued his school after he dropped out for whatever reasons (implied that he was under horrible harrasment and what have you) and won the suit (err spelling?) against the school. So now it seems like schools are getting all wierd about stuff, as if they are just now realizing that "Oh wow, we ARE responsible for this stuff!!!"

Haha, my dad asked me to seriously think about turning around and sueing my old school (lets just say I would have a case =P).

-Neo

[Prozerran]

Oh, you want to revamp the whole thing, huh? You want 350 billion dollars to go through every state and county in America to rework schools. Well, I want a fucking golden toilet seat. Grow up, it's not going to happen. If you want to change the way schools work, you're going to have to do it with something other than some weirdass off-the-wall belief you hold. Believe it or not, everybody thinks they have the solution to America's problems in education. Our actual problem is that we can't find one that works and the majority approves.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. This is exactly what everyone complains about but no one seems to comprehend. It doesn't take MORE MONEY to improve our education. It takes proper APPROPRIATION OF FUNDS to improve our education system. The problem is no one can agree on what that is. I can tell you that unless you are in a computer technology course, you do not need a computer in every classroom.

Kids are shooting other kids? Believe it or not, this is nothing new. It's been going on in inner-city schools for years. It didn't make the news until some middle-class white kids did it to other middle-class white kids. The basis of the teasing/hazing is rooted in oppression/descrimination behavior, which minorities have been attempting to deal with for years; it's still going on and it doesn't make the news. But NOW it's suddenly this BIG problem that's oh-so-upsetting.

I believe this was already addressed, but just so it's clearly stated... it doesn't matter what class of society that this violence occurs. That it occurs is the problem. You missed the point, and that's why this thread is becoming tiresome for you.

What the fuck does this mean? Their sole purpose is to educate, but now they need to "nurture the child's desire to learn"? What the hell does that entail? You want to learn science, sit down and shut up, I'll teach you some science. You want to inspire Billy and Timmy to stop screwing with their Magic cards and pay attention to science, you're going to need someone else. THIS is the problem with the school system--too many people trying to make it something it's not. Its sole purpose is to EDUCATE, damn right. Not fucking educate, inspire, develop, and coddle. You come to school to work, not sit around until the teacher finally inspires you and the 200 other kids she sees in a day.

This is another one of those moments where you reply just to rebut without actually considering the full context of the statement.

"I blame the school system, because they have not nurtured that child's desire to learn in a system whose sole purpose is to educate."

Considering that I was speaking in context of the purpose education seems to be serving rather than the one it should, nurturing a child's desire to learn is educating them. That's education. In short, it's not simply making them memorize dictionary terms, math formulas, historic moments in history, etc... educating students is taking that information as a basis of knowledge and having the student apply it, address it, analyze it, or otherwise form some level of understanding all on their own.

And surprisingly, this doesn't take 3.5 Billion. It doesn't take $10k. It takes a teacher, a student, and in some cases, a piece of paper and a pencil. What is that, $.01 for the paper and $.10 for the pencil? A far cry from 3.5 Billion anually.

Lots of people complain about how their curriculum is boring and they're just not challenged. Hate to break it to you, but that sounds a lot like life so best grow up now, kids. I see two shit-tons of people every day who think that they're ready to take on their boss' position, or deserve some kind of promotion--but they can't even get their own work done well for more than a week at a time. If you get bored easily, nobody will want you--because work isn't supposed to be this entertaining, challenging adventure despite what Dora the Explorer says on TV.

If this isn't the biggest load of crap I've ever read, I don't know what is. I don't know if there's even an appropriate analogy for the kind of comparison you're trying to draw here.

Education doesn't need to be fun or adventurous, but it does need to be educational. As in, education should stimulate thought, abstract or otherwise. If education is boring, there's something wrong with the way it is being taught from a curriculum standpoint, not just the way it is being learned.

[GenocideAlive]

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. This is exactly what everyone complains about but no one seems to comprehend. It doesn't take MORE MONEY to improve our education. It takes proper APPROPRIATION OF FUNDS to improve our education system. The problem is no one can agree on what that is. I can tell you that unless you are in a computer technology course, you do not need a computer in every classroom.
So, exactly how familiar are you with teaching and budgeting in public schools? Please reference your education as to where this money could come from and where you'd put it to affect this magical change.
Considering that I was speaking in context of the purpose education seems to be serving rather than the one it should, nurturing a child's desire to learn is educating them. That's education. In short, it's not simply making them memorize dictionary terms, math formulas, historic moments in history, etc... educating students is taking that information as a basis of knowledge and having the student apply it, address it, analyze it, or otherwise form some level of understanding all on their own.
So basically you just wrote a paragraph to say "Hey, I didn't say 'nurture their desire to learn', I said 'teach them'". Funny, it seems to me that if you wanted to say "teach them", you would have said exactly that. I'm not sure why you'd say "nurture their desire to learn", when it's completely misleading and misrepresentative of what you truly meant, which is "improve their independence and quality of problem solving skills". Either that, or you're making shit up now to cover for the fact that you didn't have any direction or purpose previously.
And surprisingly, this doesn't take 3.5 Billion. It doesn't take $10k. It takes a teacher, a student, and in some cases, a piece of paper and a pencil. What is that, $.01 for the paper and $.10 for the pencil? A far cry from 3.5 Billion anually.
This supports my entire point that you have no clue what you're talking about, and you're just being a smartass pundit for purposes of furthering your viewpoint. Not only are you ridiculing my argument, you're making yourself look Grade-A fucking stupid. Guess what, Timmy? It takes more than paper and a pencil. Let's go through a barebones budget for your benefit, Mr.-Just-11c-For-Education.

1. Teacher
2. Building (rent? buy?)
3. Electricity
4. Plumbing
5. Administrator
6. Secretarial
7. Janitorial
8. Desks
9. Teacher Desks
10. Teacher Supply (Blackboard, chalk, projector, etc.)
11. Security Personel
12. Break Rooms
13. Playground Equipment
14. Fire Equipment
15. Special Education Supplies
16. Special Education Teachers
17. Special Education Access Ramps/Building Outfitting
18. Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooookssssssss

Please allocate that 11c to show everybody proper allocation of funds.
Education doesn't need to be fun or adventurous, but it does need to be educational. As in, education should stimulate thought, abstract or otherwise. If education is boring, there's something wrong with the way it is being taught from a curriculum standpoint, not just the way it is being learned.
OK, so let's summarize what you've said so far in this paragraph. "Education doesn't need to be fun or adventurous", but "if education is boring, there is something wrong with the way it is being taught". Super, your great analysis of the education system is a glaring oxymoron. Additionally, "education...does need to be educational"--education should stimulate thought"; thanks the update, I think that's vital. The value of this paragraph and your entire vapid argument is fucking zero...it contradicts itself all over the place, and completely lacks any substance.

Edit: Although, I am seriously considering your "biggest load of crap" point. Because seriously, if there's an expert on loads of crap, it's gotta be you.

[Prozerran]

So basically you just wrote a paragraph to say "Hey, I didn't say 'nurture their desire to learn', I said 'teach them'". Funny, it seems to me that if you wanted to say "teach them", you would have said exactly that. I'm not sure why you'd say "nurture their desire to learn", when it's completely misleading and misrepresentative of what you truly meant, which is "improve their independence and quality of problem solving skills". Either that, or you're making shit up now to cover for the fact that you didn't have any direction or purpose previously.

It's all there for you. Read. Comprehend. Repeat. (Nuts, I love this - thanks)

This supports my entire point that you have no clue what you're talking about, and you're just being a smartass pundit for purposes of furthering your viewpoint. Not only are you ridiculing my argument, you're making yourself look Grade-A fucking stupid. Guess what, Timmy? It takes more than paper and a pencil. Let's go through a barebones budget for your benefit, Mr.-Just-11c-For-Education.

1. Teacher
2. Building (rent? buy?)
3. Electricity
4. Plumbing
5. Administrator
6. Secretarial
7. Janitorial
8. Desks
9. Teacher Desks
10. Teacher Supply (Blackboard, chalk, projector, etc.)
11. Security Personel
12. Break Rooms
13. Playground Equipment
14. Fire Equipment
15. Special Education Supplies
16. Special Education Teachers
17. Special Education Access Ramps/Building Outfitting
18. Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooookssssssss

Please allocate that 11c to show everybody proper allocation of funds.

Practically speaking, what you've mentioned is much less than what is allocated to education in most areas. When we're talking about Billions of Dollars like you're attempting to illustrate here, we're talking about nickels and dimes. Do I really need to spell this kind of point out for you like you're in 3rd grade, or can you grasp the fact that education isn't suffering from a lack of money, just a lack of proper allocation of funds?

OK, so let's summarize what you've said so far in this paragraph. "Education doesn't need to be fun or adventurous", but "if education is boring, there is something wrong with the way it is being taught". Super, your great analysis of the education system is a glaring oxymoron. Additionally, "education...does need to be educational"--education should stimulate thought"; thanks the update, I think that's vital. The value of this paragraph and your entire vapid argument is fucking zero...it contradicts itself all over the place, and completely lacks any substance.

So, here you tell us that we should get used to boredom and that education is just one of those things we have to undergo. Wow. Wait, where was it? Oh yeah, here.

Lots of people complain about how their curriculum is boring and they're just not challenged. Hate to break it to you, but that sounds a lot like life so best grow up now, kids.

Talk about a horrible mindset. Thinking about how eager children are to learn in their early development and how much that desire becomes stunted as they progress in the system, yeah, my point has everything to do with telling you you're a complete and total moron when it comes to this discussion. But hey, you said it yourself. Children need to cope with being bored, not challenged.

Edit: Although, I am seriously considering your "biggest load of crap" point. Because seriously, if there's an expert on loads of crap, it's gotta be you.

HA! That's funny. Really I'm amused.

[GenocideAlive]

Practically speaking, what you've mentioned is much less than what is allocated to education in most areas. When we're talking about Billions of Dollars like you're attempting to illustrate here, we're talking about nickels and dimes.
Not only are you using vague generalizations to cover up your bullshit ("practically speaking", "most areas"), but you're now just retreating into a corner to repeat "Nuh-uh!" over and over.
So, here you tell us that we should get used to boredom and that education is just one of those things we have to undergo.
Yes, get used to boredom or learn to entertain yourself; the world isn't your giant entertainment center. I'm sure this is hard for you to cope with, but it's a harsh reality. Right up there with those poor neglected kids that don't have cars at 15 and have to wait until they're 18 to get cell phones.
Talk about a horrible mindset. Thinking about how eager children are to learn in their early development and how much that desire becomes stunted as they progress in the system
Nevermind that you're now just stringing along just random bullshit, let's address this. Think about the content that they receive in their early development vs. what they receive as they progress in the system.

When you first start in kindergarten, you draw, nap, and have story time. Once you hit third grade, you're definitely getting into work and cognitive development. Once you're out of elementary school, you start getting the homework, serious classwork, tests, etc. Why isn't it fun anymore? Because you're not being entertained, you're doing work. It's a cruel world, I'm sure.

Anyway, thanks for ignoring the crux of my previous post, the fact that you have no experience or basis for budgets or even the current state of the school systems. No need to return to this thread, you've pretty much mined every bullshit pile dry and will just make stale insults from here on out. gg.

[Prozerran]

When you first start in kindergarten, you draw, nap, and have story time. Once you hit third grade, you're definitely getting into work and cognitive development. Once you're out of elementary school, you start getting the homework, serious classwork, tests, etc. Why isn't it fun anymore? Because you're not being entertained, you're doing work. It's a cruel world, I'm sure.

Wrong again. The issue here is not the entertaining value of education, it's the stimulation of thought, two things distinctly different from one another. While you try to spin the subject and manipulate the words of others into your own context, the simple truth is the busy work you refer to, the technical, mind-numbing, repetitious work throughout middle school and high school is quite unnecessary and underdeveloped from a curriculum standpoint.

For instance, from grades 4 through 11, students endure 7 years of general science. That's 7 years of learning about the solar system. That's 7 years of learning the scientific method. That's 7 years of learning about rocks. That's 7 years of learning about photosynthesis. That's 7 years of learning about genetics, and I can go on with every other topic covered from 4th grade on in general science. Redundant. Repetitive. A waste of time.

Another for instance. In mathematics, students are taught from grades 1 through 10 how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide. Only those students exposed in high school to modern algebra are actually taken a small step further in learning how to use variables in functional equations. And even still, those students aren't using algebra in a coherent way. Independant thought once again does not apply.

And moreover, in English comprehension (or its equivalent) from grades 4 through 12, students are only exposed to the more complex works of literature as seniors in high school (if they're lucky enough not to be thwarted by bible grabbing conservatives) and even then are only taught enough to actually write a paper on a subject matter generally supplied by the teacher. So, they are spoon fed the book, spoon fed the important points of the book, then they are assigned a writing topic. And you're telling me this is ok? You're telling me students are getting a proper education in said curriculum by being spoon fed their assignments when they are graduating with a high school diploma? Kind of low standards, wouldn't you say?

Let's not forget the arts, where no student is required to be proficient in one of the numerous liberal subject matters like art, english, or history. If you're trying to supplement a student's ability to cope with boredom with the complete lack of independant thought and ability to form an informed, independant opinion, I assert your position to be pathetic.

While you were "rebutting" my previous points, you failed to grasp the point of the discussion (I've said this three times). The problem is the curriculum.

I'll say it again.

The problem is the curriculum.

The problem is not related to funding (though you assert with some authority that the funding is somehow related to issues of school violence, the point of the thread, which I counter with my initial post pointing to the fact that adding security checkpoints, police, dogs, etc.. isn't working).

The problem is not related to the student (to the extent that the student does the work, which the typical student will do regardless of the benefit in doing it).

So, there we have it. It cannot be made any clearer. Please read. Please comprehend. Stop wasting time trying to divert the topic to some issue of funding like you have the capacity to take some authoritative position on that issue yourself. I know from a curriculum standpoint because I endured it. We all did. This is at least a topic we can discuss to a reasonable degree of understanding.

[Kingscrab]

Redundant. Repetitive. A waste of time. Repetition is a HUGELY effective way to teach a concept. What education isn't based on it? Ever heard of "practice makes perfect?"

Another for instance. In mathematics, students are taught from grades 1 through 10 how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide. Only those students exposed in high school to modern algebra are actually taken a small step further in learning how to use variables in functional equations. And even still, those students aren't using algebra in a coherent way. Independant thought once again does not apply. Dude, it's math. Not poetry. Those who excel or find joy and interest in math will surely pursue the more complex mathmatical issues. Why would you teach a higher class to kids that have not mastered a prerequisite course first?

And moreover, in English comprehension (or its equivalent) from grades 4 through 12, students are only exposed to the more complex works of literature as seniors in high school (if they're lucky enough not to be thwarted by bible grabbing conservatives) and even then are only taught enough to actually write a paper on a subject matter generally supplied by the teacher. So, they are spoon fed the book, spoon fed the important points of the book, then they are assigned a writing topic. And you're telling me this is ok? You're telling me students are getting a proper education in said curriculum by being spoon fed their assignments when they are graduating with a high school diploma? Kind of low standards, wouldn't you say? What about elective classes? The standard English classes teach the basics, and perhaps a few of the "classics". Again, those that become interested can usually take creative writing courses or more specialized English literature courses. You think teaching basic English comprehension is a "low standard". Hmmm... I disagree.

Let's not forget the arts, where no student is required to be proficient in one of the numerous liberal subject matters like art, english, or history. The problem is the curriculum. Well, all i can say is, my younger brother is still in high school, and for the past 4 years he's been "spoon fed" each of those classes every quarter. What school are you talking about?

Early on, school teaches the basics and hopefully enough for a person to function in a literate society. College is where people specialize in what they are truly interested in.

Personally, i think the true problem is just general apathy amongst the younger folk in America...

Sigh. I can't believe i just said that. I'm gettin' old... :o

[GenocideAlive]

Kingscrab FTW.

If you want to claim that 7 years of the same stuff is useless and boring, my question is, why is everyone failing? Because they're bored? It would seem to me that if you're bored because the material is redundant, then you would be doing WELL despite not paying attention. The trend is that they are failing because they claim it's boring but they still do not grasp the material.

Repetition is the key to mastery, as any nitwit can tell you. Welcome to the real world.

[Kingscrab]

Kingscrab FTW. GA? FTW? What do you mean?

[Valjean]

FTW = For The Win

[GenocideAlive]

FTW: Gamerspeak acronym.

As in, "Mario FTW!" would be a prasing exclamation in favor of Mario.

"Pick Mario to win!" might be considered a light translation.

[Prozerran]

Repetition is a HUGELY effective way to teach a concept. What education isn't based on it? Ever heard of "practice makes perfect?"

Repetition can be very effective, but repetition and education are not the same thing. In the system I was educated in, they were treated as one in the same, and that is the situation in most public schools that is problematic when it does not offer the kind of specialization earlier on in a child's development.

Dude, it's math. Not poetry. Those who excel or find joy and interest in math will surely pursue the more complex mathmatical issues. Why would you teach a higher [level] class to kids that have not mastered a prerequisite course first?

You wouldn't. The standard for education in mathematics is low for this very reason. Considering the education in Japan, students are expected to have a much higher understanding of Various Mathematical Concepts. In general, Algebra is ONE OF MANY concepts that is only taught early to students who excel in their studies in the lower grade levels. By high school, many students are simply funnelled through it. Yes, I'm saying all students in lower grade levels should be learning algebra and not waiting until high school to be exposed to it. For what purpose? To challenge them.

What about elective classes? The standard English classes teach the basics, and perhaps a few of the "classics". Again, those that become interested can usually take creative writing courses or more specialized English literature courses. You think teaching basic English comprehension is a "low standard". Hmmm... I disagree.

Then we disagree. I did not have "elective creative writing courses" in my school. Should I have? Absolutely.

Well, all i can say is, my younger brother is still in high school, and for the past 4 years he's been "spoon fed" each of those classes every quarter. What school are you talking about?

Seymour High School in the Sevier Co School District of TN, second lowest County in the State in Education. Second Lowest State in the Nation (at the time) in education. Ranked at the time as the Third Lowest Nation in the World out of those with an education system (not that many, but friends and I always liked to make this connection). Yeah, not the best system to come from, but I made due with what I could get.

Early on, school teaches the basics and hopefully enough for a person to function in a literate society. College is where people specialize in what they are truly interested in.

College should give us the means to excel in a student's specialized area, not have to require 50+ hours of general study in addition to the 12+ years of high school students must endure. Really, if colleges are having to do what High Schools are not accomplishing, then what's the point of even going to school? Thus, the cycle continues, on and on and on...

Personally, i think the true problem is just general apathy amongst the younger folk in America...

Sigh. I can't believe i just said that. I'm gettin' old... :o

No wonder students are apathetic. They haven't been taught to challenge themselves to learn when they are young. At some point, students have to teach themselves and our public education system should facilitate such if they are going to certify a person to be able to "function in a literate society."

If you want to claim that 7 years of the same stuff is useless and boring, my question is, why is everyone failing? Because they're bored?

Those that are failing could be failing for any number of reasons. While the general concensus is that "failing is bad", we're taught that it is. The grading scale at my school took into account the effort you put into the work over the success of grasping the concept. So, while I grasped the concept and did very well on my tests, I was given lower grades because many times I did not have time to complete the "daily work" due to extracurricular activities. While I had to make adjustments to compensate for that to meet my obligations, the "daily work" made little to no difference in my ability to understand the concepts. There were students across the board acing tests and doing very, very well on SATs, but their scores were low because of the repetitious nonsense of daily work for those who did badly in those classes to have the upper hand. I remember in one of my classes, the daily work grade was 90% while the test grade was 5% with a 5% project grade. I mean, really... if you get it you get it. Move on.

[GenocideAlive]

The grading scale at my school took into account the effort you put into the work over the success of grasping the concept.
Not turning in work isn't called "taking into account the effort...". It's called "not doing work". If you understand how to do math but won't write answers onto a sheet of paper when prompted to do so, then there exists no other reasonable method of proving that you know the material. You've already admitted that you were neglecting your schoolwork in favor of "extracurricular activities". This leads me to the very reasonable conclusion that the problem isn't that your schoolwork isn't "boring", but rather that it isn't as fun as your "extracurricular activities". I guarantee you that if you were graded regularly on how well you played football/soccer/baseball/tennis/track, it would suddenly drop in fun by around 10 times.

In my opinion (which you can rightfully tell me to shove), you sound like someone that's generally better than your peers at academia and as a result is very lazy. Between effort and gift, I'll take effort nearly every time. It's less sporadic and far more likeable.

[Prozerran]

In my opinion (which you can rightfully tell me to shove), you sound like someone that's generally better than your peers at academia and as a result is very lazy. Between effort and gift, I'll take effort nearly every time. It's less sporadic and far more likeable.

Your opinion is noted. Unfortunately you and I are never going to see eye to eye on this topic if your viewpoint is such. We obviously have a difference of opinion on what education should entail, one that cannot be overcome by this discussion.

Call me lazy, I could care less. I refer to it as "being uninspired" or otherwise "unchallenged." If that translates into "lazy" to you then so be it.

When I'm making straight A's on the tests in those subjects and being punished for not doing the extra work involved, the benefit to the student failing to grasp the concept is crystal clear. It's not about understanding the material, it's about doing the work and being what someone's mother here referred to as "good little automatons." That's not education.

[Morkeliph]

Luckily here in Oregon, harassment is illegal in schools.Oh, how lucky! I think it's "illegal" in schools everywhere. And just one more thing for teachers to flex their authority abuse muscles (http://www.warboards.org/showpost.php?p=246545&postcount=9)with (see the Mexican Anthem thread).I'm going to do what I please one way or another, no matter the consequences, and that's the way 80% of my school feels. (Then there are the rich kids who get 400$ for striaght A's..)No matter the consequences? I think what "pleases you to do" is directly a function of your consequences. Consider the spoiled kid who gets paid $400 for straight A's; it sure as hell pleases him/her to do their schoolwork. You talk about punishing kids at home for bad grades at school to change their behavior; doesn't that involve a consequence? I'm sure that if getting bad grades meant physical abuse, you'd work your butt of for "acceptable" grades (though maybe not "excellent" grades). Yes, consequence ha a great deal to do with it.

As for blaming the children, the children are just a product of their environment. Blame their parents, teachers, and superiors. Somewhere along the line these children aren't being properly trained.

[Prozerran]

As for blaming the children, the children are just a product of their environment. Blame their parents, teachers, and superiors. Somewhere along the line these children aren't being properly trained.

Only partly true, but yes, I agree mostly. Though it is stated slightly differently, I believe the expectations of students early on are far too low and have a much greater impact later when their education has a much higher stake in their future.

At least in Music, we had a lecture in Percussion Master Class where the professor explained how the expectations of high school percussion players are far too low. He showed us pieces that were, even to me, much too difficult for us, and explained to us that we were far behind in our training. This is directly proportionate to the amount of education we had all received in our public education systems. While this is a typical problem in the Arts and may not draw serious attention, the more significant signs of this lower standard were evident in English General Studies classes where college students could not write a simple argumentative research paper.

Students should be exposed to these kinds of assignments much, much earlier while their cognitive development is much higher and much more absorbant. The longer school systems wait to integrate these concepts, the more difficult it becomes for the student, and the more stunted their development becomes. That's the frustration I felt along with several of my fellow classmates, and it was continually argued among several teachers I knew that their mandated curriculums were not achieving the results they should. Where anyone is getting "students are lazy" and "it's the student's fault" is just a cop-out. Yes, students should make the effort, but should we expect any less from the system? Not at all.

[Night-Hawk]

I was watching American Justice tonight on A&E. If you've never watched the show, it covers controversial court cases and, well, American Justice - hence the name. This particular episode dealt with the Jonesboro massacre in Arkansas where two boys (13 & 11) pulled a fire alarm, ran out to the woods behind their school, and opened fire on the crowd of students and teachers exiting the building - killing 5 young girls and a teacher.

This event preceded the infamous Columbine shooting in Colorado, and American Justice sort of tried to explain the causes of such horrific acts by young people. To summarize, the combined causes are asserted to be as follows:

Violence Portrayed in the Media
Youth Access to Firearms
A Stimulus to Act Upon (such as earlier psychological trauma, bullying, etc.)
While a common thread exists in these acts, I believe this to be a rather dry, unimaginitive and ultimately insufficient explanation. I am of the opinion that the problem is much, much deeper in our education system - something that cannot be solved by simply adding metal detectors and bomb sniffing dogs in our schools. I assert that the broader problem lies in education, and that's where the "age of innocence" comes in.

It truly is nonsence, We are loseing our grasp on our kids from keeping them from right and wroung. Our school systems are teaching us FUCK ALL excuse my language they are trying to prepair us for the future but we are not going to have a future if the school systems put some time into consideration of finding time to place extra courses of crime and punishment. What should we do even if we get know where in life, not listen/see what others are doing commiting this crap but trying to make a change.


What is this age that so many people apply to children? It's like this magical aura that surrounds children to protect them from all the negative encounters children will eventually have to face. Sure, we hope they never suffer fear or become tainted by the grotesque reality of life - that people die. I am of the opinion, however, that we are not educating children fast enough, we are not exposing them - preparing them - for social interraction. They don't know, and it's because we dawn this shroud over their eyes to protect them from what we feel they are not ready to understand. Censorship.

For the beging part I believe that people are trying to show there kids from right and woung showing us the obsticals we are going to have to face. ( key words " show " ) BUT WHERE NOT SHOWING THE HOW TO COP, HANDLE AND PROGRESS with the problem. for the seccond part, I also agree with you these schools are not teaching us fast enough. I remeber when the first time criminal crimes where adressed to me and it was already to late I already knew about them I've already seen them in action ... I might even done so my self ( not giveing you the yea I did or no I didnt ). We need to show our kids what this world is made of and how to tackle it at a young age !


It's funny to me that people blame the media for portraying violence when they're the only ones exposing children to it. It's obviously not ok to sit your child down in your lap and watch Faces of Death or some other glorified gore-seeking documentary, but it's also not ok to put them in front of the TV, turn on Pokemon or Inuyashi (sp?) and allow them to incorporate that kind of imaginitive violence in their mind, then turn around and blame the media because some child committed murder. It's just not that simple.

In my point of veiw I kinda think these crimes and such being cause by young ones is from the media not completly but some what of it yes for the reason that. We tell our kids about all the bad stuff this world has to offer, some SOME show them how to avoid it, some show how to work/cope with it. but then are kids slap there faces in frount of a TV and see all the shit they wher just told done on TV and they do crap all in the show for instance " guy kills someone runs away next thing you kno it he's a millionair ' kids see this and thing " oh if he got away with it so can I.


What is simple is this: our education system is such that children aged from 11-17 are entertained and even act out the violence portrayed in the media for their own entertainment. As in, they have nothing better to do than run around and pretend to kill one another because that's what stimulates them. That's what draws the line between fun and boredom. Cops and robbers looks cute when 3 year olds are running around with little water pistols. It's not so cute when your kid's doing it at the age of 14.


True our kids are getting board, and haveing nothing to do the result in violance, then when it gets boring with jsut fake guns they want more exsitment (sp?) and move on to bigger toys as in real weponds.



It begs the question, why are children not being stimulated in our education system? I remember my first day of 2nd grade going into class all nervous because some older neighbor of mine warned me that I would start having lots of homework. I remember being focused and intent on not falling behind, not getting a bad grade, and staying ahead. I went home with five words to handwrite - nothing. I was done in five minutes. Then I went out and played in the dirt. How anti-climactic.

And this continued even into high school where I eventually became lazy - bored and disinterested in learning because I was learning the same grammar, vocabulary, and mathematics I'd been learning since I was in 5th grade. The monotony is said to form a "foundation" for further education... right. When I asked my 6th grade teacher toward the end of the year why she hadn't taught us anything new, she put me in detention. I never asked again.

I'm sorry if anyone disagrees, but the "No Child Left Behind" movement is possibly the worst thing to have happened to our education system. It's not that I'm rooting for survival of the fittest or rewarding those that do well and otherwise punishing those that don't. The criteria for entering college on a scholarship is depressingly easy, especially if you're an athlete. One cannot know what it means to succeed if they've never failed. And this movement to pick those up that are moving through the education system at a slower rate and nurse them through it is just hurting them... they don't know what it is to succeed because the criteria for their education gets dummied down.

This, of course, does not apply to those with learning disabilities, which is why there are educational programs available to them that are geared toward their learning curve - proven to be successful in integrating those with learning disabilities into a collegiate path and making education less discriminatory.

You lost me on that one my friend :rolleyes:



The public education curriculum lets so many people down in encouraging people to learn. Teachers throw vocabulary, grammar, math, and science at students without ever really giving students some explanation as to why they need to know it. To compound the problem, students don't need to have it regurgitated to them for eight years of their pre-collegiate education. It's sickening to think I spent that long learning a total of about one year's worth of material over the span of 8 years... and truthfully, if you disagree, think back to how many times you learned about the solar system... if it's more than twice, you got ripped off because there's not that much to grasp. If it really caused you problems, get a tutor - no offense.

It truly is discusting I remeber in grade 8 I was learning stuff in math that I already learned in grade 5 ! you are right proz we can learn all of our education in s simple year but there are some area's where we are going to need more time with.



I know this seems a bit like ranting and maybe veering off topic, but when I come back to these horrific events - the combination of psychological trauma, access to weapons, and violence portrayed in the media, I think, "wow, how sad it is that our children don't know a better solution than to go out and shoot other people." I find it even more saddening that grieving parents come along asking what could bring some child to kill another child, since I believe the answer to be all too clear.

Sirsouly Where are these people common sence, a 11 year old comes up to you to buy a wepond that can take away someones life sold so easily its a shame people dont care what happends to other as long as they dont get the shit for it.



I know this may hit home to many, it might outrage you that I express these views, but honestly, it has to be said. I plan to start a family in the not-so-distant future, and I hate to think that I'm sending my children to their "stupification" in the public school system. I want my children to be eager to learn, challenge themselves, and be able to think in a problem-solving manner... not be brow-beaten by 12 years of repetitive "foundational" nonsense. Am I the only one that sees this as a problem or as a fundamental correlation to the kind of violence we've seen in our public schools?

I CERTAINLY agree with you. But think aobut it look over everything we just tlake about... repeating the same education over and over in 12 years of our lifes wiht out education on living it. Media getting away with what i think is a crime. Arm dealin to minors with out any questions. do you think there will ever be a end to all this maddness

in conclution i would like to say this " tell me and i will forget, show me and I may remember , include me and it will last a lifetime "

[Tissue]

I think that the main problem could be correlated to the teaching of mathematics.

Mathematics is actually a very difficult subject when you first learn it. That is why you have to relearn it several times. Algebra can be very difficult to understand when you are taught young by a teacher with little understanding.

When I reached secondary school I was constantly bored by maths lessons. They taught me virtually nothing and what they taught me could be taught at least twice as fast.

Then I reached Higher education aka A-levels. Most people found this hard. Intellectually, it was the a very stimulating experience in my life. Every maths lesson I was learning something new and had to apply it at the same time. Others actually had to do out of lesson study to even get to my level of understanding. I had no time for apathy in these lessons.

I think the main problem in UK is that GCSE's are too easy. I do not know about the US but I think the education system is similar. I believe that the maths course is far too unstimulating but as soon you need to go to university and prepare for a job it suddenly gets a lot harder. By this time teenagers just can't be bothered and slack off even before this stage and decide to join the army. If you are going to stack shelves, you will probably find your mathematics a bit uninteresting.

[Kingscrab]

Then I reached Higher education aka A-levels. Most people found this hard. Intellectually, it was the a very stimulating experience in my life. Every maths lesson I was learning something new and had to apply it at the same time. Others actually had to do out of lesson study to even get to my level of understanding. I had no time for apathy in these lessons.

I think the main problem in UK is that GCSE's are too easy. I do not know about the US but I think the education system is similar. I believe that the maths course is far too unstimulating but as soon you need to go to university and prepare for a job it suddenly gets a lot harder. Let me get this straight: Your epiphany is that university courses are more difficult than high school courses. Thus: there must be a problem with what is being taught in high schools? Well, i guess that's why having a university degree on your resume actually means something. (or it should...)

Congrats! You will probably get the job before those without a degree will.

[Valjean]

I think the point he was making was that there needs to be a faster pace and more stimulation happening with the maths (among many other things) at an earlier time.

Forgive me, Tissue, if I'm putting words in your mouth.

[Prozerran]

With regard to mathematics, it's a curriculum issue altogether. In my school, we studied Algebra, Geometry, and Pre-Calculus. I believe there was a Trigonometry course offered, but I can't remember if that was before or after I graduated. I was big into the arts as it was - particularly music - so I had plenty of other battles to fight in order to get a sound education in that subject area.

But as I said, it's an issue of curriculum, or to be more specific, a lacking in the curriculum to continually develop independant thought on the basis of the information being provided. For those of you who don't speak English as a first language, what I mean is that students aren't challenged to think based on a given set of facts. Instead, they are only given the facts. What students do with that information, from the school system's view point, is of no concern to them.

So, we continually see educators fighting to keep students interested in their subject matter, curriculums educators must contend with, and students who grow increasingly apathetic towards learning the material. When I started my classes in college, even my general requirements were appealing because we were given the opportunity to be creative, to apply the knowledge we learned in a realistic, thought-provoking manner. I had about 15-20 excellent teachers in undergrad. I had 3 good teachers out of 50 that I encountered in high school, but what made them good was their commitment to the subject matter over the curriculum guidelines set forth by the school system which were established by the state guidelines in Tennessee.

It's the curriculum all the way. But it's so far removed from what people see to be the "problem" that many overlook it and don't give it proper weight. So, there it is.

[Kingscrab]

I had 3 good teachers out of 50 that I encountered in high school, but what made them good was their commitment to the subject matter over the curriculum guidelines set forth by the school system which were established by the state guidelines in Tennessee.

It's the curriculum all the way. But it's so far removed from what people see to be the "problem" that many overlook it and don't give it proper weight. So, there it is. I don't buy it. I don't think you can pin it to one particular problem source. A lot of it could be circumstantial. You could be totally passionate about a subject and have one or two lame duck instructors that can turn you off to a subject. (it happened to me...) Hell, you could have one really great teacher that made you become interested in a subject that you used to totally hate. Delivery counts for a lot.

I'm just not sold on the fact that poor curriculum is the source. But I never went to school in Tennessee either...

[GenocideAlive]

I'm just going to say that the South needs a little help in the school area. That's all I'm gonna say.