Priestcraft

[Morkeliph]

Here I would like to discuss the occurence of priestcraft. By priestcraft I mean the use of religious authority or status or even affiliation to obtain worldly gains.PRIESTCRAFT
2. Priestly craft, or policy; the arts used by ambitious and worldly priests to impose upon the multitude or further their own interests.First, let me suggest that I am not coming out to attack religion itself, as I have much respect for religion and those who sincerely practice their beliefs. What I do wish to discuss is those instances in which religion has been used to further peronal ends, which I believe is against Christian doctrine (though I use the word Christian, this discussion need not be limited only to Christianity, and is infact encouraged to generalize).

Now that the disclaimer has been given, what are your opinions on the occurence of priestcraft? Does it occur? Do people use their religious affiliation or status to obtain temporal reinforcement? For instance, the T.V. evangelist using his position and belief to make money; or even the pretentious member publicly displaying their "righteousness" to be praised by others. What examples of priestcraft do you see in our world, and what are your opinions of it?

ONCE AGAIN, THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE AN ATTACK AGAINST ORGANIZED RELIGION, AND ANYONE WHO DIRECTLY DOES SO WILL BE ASKED TO REFRAIN FROM PARTICIPATION. NONETHELESS, EVERYONE SHOULD BE ENTITLED TO SPEAK THEIR OPINION (AS SUCH) AND SHOULD RESPECT THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS.

I will leave it up to the moderators to decide what is appropriate, but let's have a civil discussion on the abuse of religious authority and/or affiliation for personal interest.

[GenocideAlive]

An interesting contribution to the discussion: Sineaters.

To avoid the double post and to flesh out what is admittedly a reply lacking in substance: A sineater would be considered outside of the influence of god, but thereby gains the highest rights of all sin-forgiving capability.

If a Cardinal sins, who does he confess to? The pope? If the pope has a confession to make? Theoretically, there is no-one that is higher in the grace of god than the pope, no-one can administer the faith and forgiveness to him. Except the sin-eater whom is outside of the grace of god, and outside of the boundaries of good and evil.

They doom themselves in the process (obviously god isn't recruiting from those outside of his realm of influence), but they gain the ability to relieve priests. You then have to wonder, are they more sacrificing than a priest?

Anyway, I thought it something of an oddity that might work in this context. Sorry if this is worthless and ruins your thread.

[Morkeliph]

I'm afraid I don't know what Sineaters is/are.

Edit: Thanks for the clarification. :)

[tendercare]

Hello, I myself have not actively participated in my religion in a long time; I have no strong feelings for or against religion itself. To me, a religious leader who uses his authority for his own personal gain is no different from, say, a politician who uses his power in a similar fashion. But if the consequences of his actions hurts others or violates some law, I would think that they'll get even less respect than politicians.

[hammocksleeper]

To my knowledge, Genocide, you don't have to confess to someone higher in the hierarchy than yourself. The pope can confess to a bishop and that'd be alright.

[GenocideAlive]

To my knowledge, Genocide, you don't have to confess to someone higher in the hierarchy than yourself. The pope can confess to a bishop and that'd be alright.
That was just an example of how they would/could be used. Oftentimes sineaters served normal people, when people that had been rejected by the Church (excommunicated) were dying. By the decree of the Church, they were beyond the grace of God, thus outside of the powers of normal priests. Sineaters, however, were uniquely potent.

[Morkeliph]

Anyway, I thought it something of an oddity that might work in this context. Sorry if this is worthless and ruins your thread.You're contribution is encouraged and by no means ruins "my" thread. Thank you.To me, a religious leader who uses his authority for his own personal gain is no different from, say, a politician who uses his power in a similar fashion.I agree. To add upon that, in my eyes, the religious affliate who uses their "piety" to win the respect of others falls in the same category. Don't we all know people who "do [their] alms before men, to be seen of them" (Matt. 6:1). I mention this not to attack their religion itself (because as quoted Christianity directly denounces priestcraft), but to stimulate discussion. That being said, I personally find such behavior repulsive and hypocritical. The problem with calling someone on it is that they think you are attacking their religion, when really you are (or should be) giving useful corrective feedback. (http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?t=12724)

Edit: HINT (http://www.warboards.org/member.php?u=21236)

[Neo]

wtf is wrong with me, sorry.

-Neo

[GenocideAlive]

Meh, it's just one of those days.

[Morkeliph]

No big deal, I was just confused.

[Yoda]

I have never liked people who abuse religion for their own benefit, they tend to give the whole religion a bad name. The crusades (heck even the pope at that time encouraged this) were the biggest example of this that I can think of. Although corrupt politicions/judges are horrible people, to me this is a lot better than priestcraft, because being a priest is not meant to me gathering profit. It is the opposite.

Giving alms in public, to make yourself look good, is never a good thing. I half-suspect that most celebrities who give large amounts to charity do it for that reason, although I'm not sure on this. It is said in the Bible that if you give money to the poor to make yourself glorified by men, well then you have your reward there and won't be given a reward in heaven.

Genocide, anyone can confess their sins to God any time at all. I don't think that Cardinals are going to see the pope for confession, that would be way too inconvenient and timeconsuming on both counts. And its not like the Pope never sinned in his life or anything like that anyway.

[GenocideAlive]

Genocide, anyone can confess their sins to God any time at all. I don't think that Cardinals are going to see the pope for confession, that would be way too inconvenient and timeconsuming on both counts. And its not like the Pope never sinned in his life or anything like that anyway.
Then why is there a Confessional? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I was raised Catholic but this doesn't really make much sense to me. :/

"Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned..."

[Yoda]

Then why is there a Confessional? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I was raised Catholic but this doesn't really make much sense to me. :/

"Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned..."

That might be something traditional. I'm a Catholic as well, but I don't really understand the necessity of this either, apart from that reason. Everyone agrees that you can pray to God at any time at any place, so why can't you do that with confessing sins? Can anyone else explain this? I am actually being serious here.

[Morkeliph]

Then why is there a Confessional? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I was raised Catholic but this doesn't really make much sense to me. :/

"Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned..."To be honest, Catholicism in general doesn't make much sense to me. To each their own I suppose.

As for confessing sins to a bishop, etc., I believe it is a doctrinal practice. It was my training that all sins need confessed to God, but some sins are so grievious that they must be confessed to a bishop as well. The bishop's role is then to guide you along a path of recovery and restitution, assisting you in your repentance; a sort of spiritual therapist if you will.Although corrupt politicions/judges are horrible people, to me this is a lot better than priestcraft, because being a priest is not meant to me gathering profit. It is the opposite.I totally agree with you here. For me priestcraft is even more despicable than corrupt politics because it is hypocritical. It's like "the wolf in sheep's clothing." However, sometimes I wonder if we're not all guilty of "priestcraft" at different times. Don't we all sometimes try to display ourselves to others as being humble and good-natured so that they will "praise" or accept us? A sort of impression management I suppose. Is there something wrong in this as well? Is this entirely honest? Granted, there is a point where criticizing this goes to far, what where do we draw that line?

[GenocideAlive]

The bishop's role is then to guide you along a path of recovery and restitution.
Now that you say it, suddenly a flood comes to mind. Yeah, Catholics are big on the repent before god thing, they believe that sins need to be met with recompense. Sort of like they believe in Purgatory, and as a smaller facet of that philosophy they have Confessional. God forgives, but he doesn't let you off scot-free. Ultimately this is why I chose Catholicism over the other brands of Christianity--the concept of instant forgiveness seemed lame. There should be a debt to pay.
Don't we all sometimes try to display ourselves to others as being humble and good-natured so that they will "praise" or accept us?
Some moreso than others...;) You say you're big-headed all the time, so I'm just picking on you. I rarely feign being humble, as I don't think self-effacement is an effective behavior. Good-natured, meh. We're all good-natured if the conditions are right.

[Morkeliph]

Some moreso than others...;) You say you're big-headed all the time, so I'm just picking on you. I rarely feign being humble, as I don't think self-effacement is an effective behavior. Good-natured, meh. We're all good-natured if the conditions are right.Heh, nice prod. What I mean to say though is, don't most of us differ our behavior depending upon who we're with? The idea that we act differently around different people. I'm sure there are many reasons we could come up with for this, which is irrelevant, but that fact that it occurs is what I'm trying to add to this topic. Is it deceitful (I would argue that it isn't)? How is this similar to the "self-righteous church-goer?" I think most of us would agree that using one's religion to "elevate oneself over others" as being "of higher morals" is despicable. How might we all be guilty of something similar, or how might the "self-righteousness" be a form of impression-management? It's an interesting thought I figure we could discuss.

[Yoda]

To be honest, Catholicism in general doesn't make much sense to me. To each their own I suppose.

As for confessing sins to a bishop, etc., I believe it is a doctrinal practice. It was my training that all sins need confessed to God, but some sins are so grievious that they must be confessed to a bishop as well. The bishop's role is then to guide you along a path of recovery and restitution, assisting you in your repentance; a sort of spiritual therapist if you will.I totally agree with you here. For me priestcraft is even more despicable than corrupt politics because it is hypocritical. It's like "the wolf in sheep's clothing." However, sometimes I wonder if we're not all guilty of "priestcraft" at different times. Don't we all sometimes try to display ourselves to others as being humble and good-natured so that they will "praise" or accept us? A sort of impression management I suppose. Is there something wrong in this as well? Is this entirely honest? Granted, there is a point where criticizing this goes to far, what where do we draw that line?

Actually, the "confess your sins to a priest" now makes so much more sense to me. Thank you! :)

Now that you mention it as well, everyone is probably guilty of that as well. If you are in class, and you usually muck around and not do any work, but when your teacher is watching you, you decide "uh-oh!! Better look busy!" - then you are really in the same boat.

And often if you are with "important" people, its a good idea to be on your "best behaviour" - not act like you would normally act - so that they get a better impression of you then normal.

The main issue with priests and everyone else above them is the fact they are meant to be religious/holy men. Nobody really thinks (as far as I know) that politicions will ever be good people, but priest to profiteer is a huge fall.