What I Hate Seeing On Instillation Maps

[Fronter]

As a lot of you may know, from my reviews on some maps, is that there is one thing that irritates me on Instillation maps. That would be the wall Palletes, when the Substructure and the Roof wall Palletes are random, it makes the map look really bad and ugly. The map makers that don't do this, (I.E. (U)Bolt_Head, Panzer_Kavalier, Kitrina, Nivialys, and myself) seem to know to above average trigger working.

That is just in my experience, normally when I see a map with random wall Palletes, I hate it right of, that shows me that you did not take time, and do not care. When I join a testing game on Battle.net, and I see random wall Palletes on Instillation maps, I leave right away.

Also, there is someone more picky then me, Panzer_Kavalier, if you check his Platform maps, that Wall Palletes are not random, he even makes his Platform maps to perfection, something that is even rarer.

I would like to know... Do you start seeing this once you get into more experienced stages? Because I have not seen one map with good Wall Palletes, that had bad trigger design. It is just an experinced move.

I would like to know, how else is picky on this subject?

[CreepColony]

I totally agree with you... random pallettes on the walls just doesnt cut it for me. Installation (you jumped to platform... did you mean installation then?) tilesets are even sometimes randomized in thecampaigns, which in my oppinion is a bad move on their part. When you're inside a building, do you see random instances of giant boilers, doors that lead to nowhere, clean walls, followed by wrecked ones? Not really...

I made a decent installation map, and I made SURE that there wasnt a single random tile on those walls, because... it just looks better. My favorite installation wall is the clean flat wall. I know thats kind of vague... but lol I dont feel like getting a picture up in dis mug.

now someones gonna come in and totally deduce the point... by all means though. :)

[Aqo]

Well, of course it's better when the tiles are not random, and with SCMDraft you can un-random all of the tiles on your map in less than 20 seconds, but some people are just lazy.
:\

[T.empla.R]

Theres no reason in using a Installation or Space Platform Tileset if your not going to take the time to make it look nice, actually theres no point in making a map if your going to be sloppy. I dont think ive ever seen a new map maker actually take the time to refine their work, its also a shame that those two tilesets are the most popular ones in UMS maps.

[Fronter]

Surprised so many people agree with me...

Oh, and CreepColony, I was talking about Instillation, but I said that Panzer_Kavalier also cared about Platforms as much as Instillations.

[Omegastorm]

Ok, there's detail, and then there's pedantry. I spend long enough on my maps without having to go back through and make something "relevant" on all the walls. Alright, if I were doing some kind of campaign or mission where you were in a base, yeah, I'd do the walls a bit. But NOT in things like RPGs or other games where the scenery plays no important role. Plus, I have no editor save the original one, so I'd have to go back and do ALL the walls manually. No thanks. I can still make advanced triggers to match the best without making everything "look pretty". No offense intended, of course, to those who feel otherwise.

[Fronter]

On every single map I did, I did the walls manually... I never knew that SCMDraft could unrandomize... AqoTrooper, how do you do that? I check all around, and couldn't find that :/.

Plus, maps are bas on two main things:

Triggers

And Terrain.

I am picky on both, what makes a map good is both good triggers (More important) and Terrain, I do not like ugly sloppy maps. You will never find an Instillation map I have made with random wall pallete, I started doing this when I worked on my first Instillation map, about some long time ago. I noticed that the walls look really ugly, and that I like the Chrome walls the best.

[Omegastorm]

Well, I can see how spending the time to detail your walls can really add to the effect. I just don't see how not doing that on certain maps can automatically count them as poor, or make the authors lazy. Surely smooth, gripping gameplay is more important that flashy graphics?

EDIT: It's also harder to make better looking terrain with the normal editor, because you can't place things as precisely.

[Fronter]

I have been using my editors to place the walls normally, it isn't that hard, but takes time. I judge maps hard, I think about how much the Creator cares about the map, and how much time is put in it, and Terrain, and Gameplay, and Triggers. You just broke three of my speculations.

[Omegastorm]

Broke three of your speculations? Sorry, I don't quite understand what you are saying...

[MidnightGladius]

I agree completely with Fronter here. Having nice terrain makes the ambience so much better (ie. SCBW Terran 2: the Battlecruiser docking ports are so well done it's amazing).

[Aqo]

I never knew that SCMDraft could unrandomize... AqoTrooper, how do you do that? I check all around, and couldn't find that :/.
Open up SCMDraft2, press Terrain than Subtile.
Hold ctrl, and click a wall, then leave ctrl, select the wall type you want all the walls to have, set the brush size to 2*3 and hold shift. While you're holding shift, press walls, and they'll change to your selected wall type.
On older versions of SCMDraft you could just make a 12*12 brush, select a wall type, and move your cursor over the whole map, but sadly SI decided to change the way this feature works...

[Fronter]

Oh wow, cool, this will most certainly same me some time! Thank you. This will shorten everything by so much, manually clicking takes so long... Thank you.

[pixels]

you know i never really thought about it (since i really dont like the installation tileset, not enough variation in the types of terrain for me) but i think uniformity on the tileset would definitely make it seem more strealine.

i recently made a map on twilight where i didnt want ANY of the ballisca's to have the blue lights. lots of undo, redo :p

[Fronter]

Yes, those blue lights are annoying on the Twilight Maptile. I never have them, they are just in the way, in my opinion.

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

Im not really picky on anything except what food I eat. If im playing a map and I see the walls in random palletes I wouldn't care, it doesn't mean its unprofessinal, but its in one pallete it does look nicer. It depends what the map takes place in, if it takes place in an abandon Command Center or BattleCruiser or something then the pallets shouldn't look nice, and maybe a little random, if the map takes place in an labatory of somesort than it should look nice and maybe in 1 pallete. The map is sapposed to make the player know in what what place is looking at.

And I think those lights your prefering to (in the dirt pallet for twilight) are rocks.

[Aqo]

And I think those lights your prefering to (in the dirt pallet for twilight) are rocks.
No they were talking about these things:

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/9649/tehjpga8bd.jpg

[DLKutzner]

Anything like those Bluelights are annoying....like those ammo crates on the structure terrian on the Badlands Tileset

And I agree with Smoth even walls...nor random on installation tilesets

[Kingscrab]

Plus, maps are bas on two main things:

Triggers And Terrain. True... True... (and WAVS of course ;) )
Although, i will argue that triggers do not have to be crazy/insane to make a map good. Effective, yes, but not necessarily complex. I think there is something to be said for simplicity at times. I also find (for me) the installation terrain is the hardest to be creative on. But that's just me... :D

[Aqo]

Is it even possible to be creative these days? What can you do that hasn't been done at least 50k times before?

[Basan]

Well, I can see how spending the time to detail your walls can really add to the effect. I just don't see how not doing that on certain maps can automatically count them as poor, or make the authors lazy. Surely smooth, gripping gameplay is more important that flashy graphics?

EDIT: It's also harder to make better looking terrain with the normal editor, because you can't place things as precisely.

/me has a short fits *
Bah... :P No, it doesn't. I'm making an installation map and any wall there matches to what I deem fit (either silver, or others when traps are about) and every single one of'em was made in SCXE but now I find it easier to finish the 'terraforming' with SCMDraft 2. :poke:
Imo on installation tilesets (and at some extent space platforms terrain as well) I thoroughly agree that the random look doesn't feel properly fitting, since supposedly it was a man made structure. :smirk:

Edit add: Is it even possible to be creative these days? What can you do that hasn't been done at least 50k times before?

*Meh* With the loss of the 'God Triggers' (aka EUD research), alas we're at a point of no possible evolution (in mapping). :concern:

[Omegastorm]

Is it even possible to be creative these days? What can you do that hasn't been done at least 50k times before? Absolutely. The more difficult something becomes, the less people have tried it. The spawn system in my RPG for example, seen ANY other maps that use it? Things like making smooth walls may have been done a million times before, but there will practically always be room for new triggers. It just depends on the way you use them, of course.

[Fronter]

(either silver, or others when traps are about)I like to call it Chrome... Just me. Sliver is fine. But that is what I mainly use, if I am making some weird like, control room, I use computers everywhere. Like in the pilot area of a Battlecrusier.

Anyways, there are room for new ideas... Like a movie I am planning on making, it is not based on anything anyone has played.

Oh, and by the way AqoTrooper, thank you for saying that about SCMDraft, that will save me some Multiple minutes.

[lord_baver]

But NOT in things like RPGs or other games where the scenery plays no important role.

lol then I know how serious a RPG map made of you is going to be :D

okay, i'm new at mapping starcraft, but i'm NOT new at designing dungeons/installations/whatever else adventuring setting. And if there is something that is much more important than the RULES (triggers) then that would be the feeling of the dungeon.

Personally, I think a well-designed map never should have anything at random, unless there is a very good reason to have it that way.

[T.empla.R]

I keep hearing

Its hard to do with a normal editor

Well SCMDraft costs a large sum of 0$ and you can find them at almost any SC site.

Here ill even give you a link
http://starcraft.org/dl/26925

SCMDraft is crazy. I keep finding little things that make mapping easy such as the feature that when you select a unit and press any number from 1-8 it changes the unit ownership!

[CreepColony]

Well SCMDraft costs a large sum of 0$ and you can find them at almost any SC site.

good job man, way to silence a riot! I agree whole heartedly with this, Templar. Believe me, it isnt that complicated to use either my proof being I can use it. But I mean... if you don't want to put the amount of effort into a map to make everything uniform, thats just your taste which you're 100% entitled to.

[Sikawtic]

Leaving just because the walls are bad is just stupid.

Just because the person doesn't wanna waste another couple hours of their life, doesn't mean the map isn't done well.

[CreepColony]

I suggest just putting that behind us, ok? He said that in his first post and it seems to be causing a little friction- which levels off to badness.

Anyway... Installation is a nifty tileset. Be it uniformed or not, its just really great and open to expandability.

[Omegastorm]

I did a little experiment on Battle.net. Basically, I hosted a bunch of UMS installation maps, and at a random point I would ask people what they thought of the walls. The answer was almost always the same:

WTF?!

My point is that most people playing Battle.net don't care about walls, and even care very little about the terrain in general. Looking back at my previous post, I realise I said terrain, but even I care about the terrain, of course. I think the only reason you guys care so much about walls anyway is that you are all expert map-makers and, having hit the "glasss roof" of Starcraft (ie the point where you can't really make any better triggers), you decided to go ahead and improve on other fronts, mainly graphics. That was your personal challenge. Personally, I hate that glass ceiling, and so I made it my mission to see just how far I could push it with more and more difficult triggers. Thus, I still don't care about walls.

How the walls are done in a scenario map full of triggers does not necessarily mean anything about that game. How the walls are done in 1 player campaigns, or movies or whatever DOES matter. I guess I was a little annoyed when Fronter voted bad for my map before he'd even played it just cause of the walls.

But the bottom line is this: Who are you writing games to? If it's the upper eschelon of map-makers like ourselves, then maybe you should look at walls. Not even all of the upper-crust care about walls! But if you are like me, and trying to make fun games that people on Battle.net would play and remember as fun, perhaps spending so much time on that small area of the game is too much.
That's my opinion

[Basan]

Leaving just because the walls are bad is just stupid.

Just because the person doesn't wanna waste another couple hours of their life, doesn't mean the map isn't done well.

Note that I didn't said that would quit playing the map if it had 'bad' terraining(in this case installation random tiles), but it sure doesn't attract me that much if it occurs. :P
Nor have said it was badly done also, but imho since mapping is an effort to present your best (no matter if it'll be shared with others or not), you get my drift. ;)

I did a little experiment on Battle.net. Basically, I hosted a bunch of UMS installation maps, and at a random point I would ask people what they thought of the walls. The answer was almost always the same:

WTF?!

My point is that most people playing Battle.net don't care about walls, and even care very little about the terrain in general. Looking back at my previous post, I realise I said terrain, but even I care about the terrain, of course. I think the only reason you guys care so much about walls anyway is that you are all expert map-makers and, having hit the "glasss roof" of Starcraft (ie the point where you can't really make any better triggers), you decided to go ahead and improve on other fronts, mainly graphics. That was your personal challenge. Personally, I hate that glass ceiling, and so I made it my mission to see just how far I could push it with more and more difficult triggers. Thus, I still don't care about walls.

...

But the bottom line is this: Who are you writing games to? If it's the upper eschelon of map-makers like ourselves, then maybe you should look at walls. Not even all of the upper-crust care about walls! But if you are like me, and trying to make fun games that people on Battle.net would play and remember as fun, perhaps spending so much time on that small area of the game is too much.
That's my opinion

Since most of B.Net play is all about "money and/or fastest maps" and little is played regullr or even UMS, it's my belief that most mappers there don't care how swell it was made. However, exceptional cases exist and are for example where you must have terrain with specific format(s) to have a wall-in at some point(s) of the map itself to ensure some balance. *Cough*Lost Temple*Cough*And even in there, there are many versions of it flavouring different range spectres, since the money genre to the regular play. ;)

As for the rest of your post please refer to my above paragraphs in reply to Sik's PoV. :)

[Fronter]

I did a little experiment on Battle.net. Basically, I hosted a bunch of UMS installation maps, and at a random point I would ask people what they thought of the walls. The answer was almost always the same:

WTF?!
That's because most people on battle.net are ethier map making Newbies, or never even thouched the editor. Trust me, you find that a lot, get someone like Kitrina, Panzer_Kavalier, or I to join. Then we critize. (Panzer_Kavalier critizes more then me, he plays only on West though, I enter games that some people host as test, he comes, and start noting at begining).

If you do not want to show that you do not care about the map, then why play it? I care about my maps, I care that they are made nice, and don't look like Newbie Terrain work or Triggers (If I hate a certain trigger set up, I just find a way past it till I know what it is).

Also, you do not use transmissions, that makes it hard to know how says what, just my opinion. You put like:

Omegastorm: [Insert Non-Colored Text Here]

Also, before I started using advanced editors (Some long time ago) I thought they were stupid because they were a "Hack Program" but I soon replaced my naive thoughts with normal, clear thoughts.

[T.empla.R]

Its how you look at it, the thread is asking "Does anyone feel this way" not "This is the way it should be" so I dont see any point in arguing because everyones entitled to their opinions and if you want us to say:

:worship: Yes You Are Right We Are Wrong :worship:

Sorry its not gonna happen.



(Warcraft Marine Rules! ^^)

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

That's because most people on battle.net are ethier map making Newbies, or never even thouched the editor.

-Is it becouse their noobies? Or is it becouse you people are such neat freaks?

-Did you notice the wall pallets in 'PATRIOTES BLOOD' (BW Terran Mission 7) have
random pallets? [Well If you take a long look you might think they might have done that on purpose]

-I respect that you think you should spend time on your maps, but does is it really have to be so fancy?

[MidnightGladius]

Patriot's Blood only has random palettes when it's necessary. Notice how each room has its own distinct purpose? The walls are tastefully done to create a passable ambience.

And there are no things in random places (computers in entry hallway or chemical vats in computer areas).

Patriot's Blood is a good map for its storyline value. It's really easy technically speaking, but it has a purpose in the specifics of the storyline.

[Fronter]

-I respect that you think you should spend time on your maps, but does is it really have to be so fancy?Yes, because I don't like showing laziness on maps, I like showing that I care on my maps, I like showing that I take I take time on my maps. I like showing that I don't take a map out of anywhere, and throw it in.

And as MidnightGladius stated, yes there are no computers around in hallways like random, but I still prefer the silver look. But if you take the time to not show weird things in rooms (Computers in hallways), then that is at least showing effort.

EDIT: Is it because they are noobies, or is it because you people are such neat freaks?Well, I have not seen one map that has very well designed Terrain, that doesn't match with the Triggers, or gameplay fun.

House of the Haunted, made by (U)Bolt_Head, has the hallways with the Chrome Walls. My maps tend to mainly have Chrome Walls, but in a lot of areas, computers are added to access them, there are no idle computers. I like to make my area look like a Grand Elite Instillation, or Ship. I take pride in my neatness.

[Superpsyke62]

I agree with Fronter on being neat with the walls... but up until reading this thread, I have never ever noticed the walls being uniformed at all.

But, it does look much nicer now that i do notice it

I also feel that judging a map because of its random palletes is extremely stereotypical. Most of my map making friends work really hard on the triggers and never try to uniform the maps.

Finally without using scmdraft, uniforming the walls is incredibally tedious.

It requires a lot of diligence and patience. To an extremely expert map maker it may look really nice...but most people will never notice.

so for now on ill uniform my walls

[Fronter]

Well I did the "Uniform" Walls for about a long time, and it took me forever to do it, especially when some areas effect like five areas, so I would had to do the add new terrain, delete it, then repeat until wall was nice.

But SCMDraft is now saving me a lot of time, what took around two hours, now take two minutes.

[Omegastorm]

By transmissions I assume you mean colours for text and unfortunately, you CANNOT do it with a normal SC editor, or at least, there is nothing that tells you how. Otherwise I would have

[Basan]

By transmissions I assume you mean colours for text and unfortunately, you CANNOT do it with a normal SC editor, or at least, there is nothing that tells you how. Otherwise I would have

That's when SCXE (Base Mode) comes in to play... or if you wanna do it in StarEdit anyway just dl the UED colours file (from the SC Editing Tools thread) and copy-paste it into the text parts of the original editor. ;)

SCXE simply is a StarEdit enhancer that allows you to access the hidden units and triggering options amongst others (colours included) that the original doesn't show by simply switching those options showing status within the SC game files. And don't worry StarEdit will still be the same when you use it. :poke:
In fact, SCXE was my 1st editor switcheroo, I was also reluctant and enjoyed it enough to still accomplish most my mapping in it. Please don't bash things without even testing it(/those) a tad 1st at least. :)

[Omegastorm]

I don't have a fast enough connection to dl any big files...

[Aqo]

I don't have a fast enough connection to dl any big files...
SCXE is only two megabytes.

I downloaded it myself years ago when my connection speed was 8kb per sec, so unless your connections is TeH slow you should have no problem getting it.

[Basan]

SCXE is only two megabytes.

I downloaded it myself years ago when my connection speed was 8kb per sec, so unless your connections is TeH slow you should have no problem getting it.

Something around those sizes (for the setup file). When installed and depending on how many modes you install thesize of it might be bigger. Mine takes up to 8 MBs, give or take a few, and I only have installed 3 modes that are the ones I consider essential (read Base, Special and P12 Mode). ;)

When dl'ed it and it was through my 56 KBds modem it didn't took me thaaat long n' I call that modem the 'sloth works', Omega'... *Cough*'round 15 mins*Cough* :P and I went to the source (read StormCoast-Fortress (http://www.stormcoast-fortress.net/)).

[Fronter]

By transmissions I assume you mean colours for text and unfortunately, you CANNOT do it with a normal SC editor, or at least, there is nothing that tells you how. Otherwise I would haveYou can do it with a normal editor, very easy. All you have to do is copy the symbol, that is all.

Transmissions are when you make a person talk, and it has the Display Picture speaking, and pings the location of the unit, and flashes on them, and has a time set up on how long you want it, and has a WAV that you put in.

You use Display Text, which I only use when I say "Medical Pack Found". Or something like that, when people speak, I obviously use Transmission. I am surprised you did not know what they are, at all.

EDIT: Basan, it takes like one minute for me to download it (Let the reign of High Speed DSL commence!)

[T.empla.R]

uhh you could open the DL box then just leave it for an hour or two

in fact I DL'ed XTRA with a 14 KB/S Modem and it took about two hours ;)

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

I read your posts and Im starting to get secound ideas. Anyways, I got something thats anoying in most maps I make, when I make transmissions in game, like more than 3 lines long, and try to make all the words red or some other color, in the game only the first line was colored but the secound line just turn light blue again. I use X-tra Editor, and maybe im the only one with this problom.

O, I might have missed heard you, do mean you hate seeing random wall pallets like the maker was too lazy to make them nice or if the maker made the random walls that was done on purpose?

[MidnightGladius]

As for transmissions (or any non-briefing text, for that matter), the color symbol will only last the duration of that text string (line). Instead of typing on, use a carriage return (enter) and recopy the color marking.

I believe that Fronter means that he hates seeing random palettes due to mapmaker laziness.

[Fronter]

I believe that Fronter means that he hates seeing random palettes due to mapmaker laziness.There is the answer.

[Basan]

You can do it with a normal editor, very easy. All you have to do is copy the symbol, that is all.
...
You use Display Text, which I only use when I say "Medical Pack Found". Or something like that, when people speak, I obviously use Transmission. I am surprised you did not know what they are, at all.

*Meh's* I believe to have already said that (in here) as well, but with more detail on how to accomplish it. And please don't bash the 'new folk(s)' that much, since there are several methods to do it. (For instance, he might not want *.wav's in his maps due to size enlargment in the 1st place.). ;)

EDIT: Basan, it takes like one minute for me to download it (Let the reign of High Speed DSL commence!)

Brag all ya want (but I have it at home too :P). Was speaking in the days that when had to dl stuff from the Net at my abode only had the default laptop modem (with 56 KBds). I'd put the dl's in motion and wento to do some stuff else, like munchin' the refrigerator. :rolleyes:

uhh you could open the DL box then just leave it for an hour or two

in fact I DL'ed XTRA with a 14 KB/S Modem and it took about two hours ;)

Crickey, that sure must be hella fun. (Not.)
Glad that I ain't that far into the 'Stone Age'... :angel: *Hates the Flinstones 'toons, btw*

I read your posts and Im starting to get secound ideas. Anyways, I got something thats anoying in most maps I make, when I make transmissions in game, like more than 3 lines long, and try to make all the words red or some other color, in the game only the first line was colored but the secound line just turn light blue again. I use X-tra Editor, and maybe im the only one with this problom.

No, you're not (as Midnight' also stated). *Smiles* You must copy-paste the text colour bar (in the typing boxes) onto every new line you intend having the same colouring pattern.

[Fronter]

You must copy-paste the text colour bar (in the typing boxes) onto every new line you intend having the same colouring pattern.Which is not as easy as it sounds. The Message Editor doesn't tell you when it will cut down on the map, so you have to press enter at a place you want, though this won't be useful unless you enter about 3/4 of the way of the line. This is why I use.

[MidnightGladius]

It's why you use...? :/

I just structure my text blocks so that they don't reach the right side of the screen. Use the carriage return at around 1/2 to 3/4 the bar.

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

O, two days ago I started making a new camapain. I opened a blizzard map, 'Desperate Aliance' in StarCraft Original. I looked on how they did their transmissions. I like the way did they did theirs, so I decided doing what they did for now on. So I started doing it. If you whant to know how to do them look at the pictures.

[HeroicRaptor]

Either that's your spelling or you're bsing us about it being Blizzard's. I mean, come on, look at those garish spelling errors. "Aready", "whant", and "totaly" are just a few. But that is a good example and tut.

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

it wasnt a blizzard map, thats just an example i made and i got the idea for doing that while looking at a blizzard map. I gtg...

[Aqo]

whant, lol.

[MidnightGladius]

Spell-check helps a lot, you know. Impressions from text are crucial to the overall game.

[T.empla.R]

Or just go over your work after you type it ;)

[MidnightGladius]

Ah, when I say spell-check, I mean the process of checking your spelling. Then of course, I almost never spell anything wrong the first time, so I can't say for sure.

[Fronter]

It's why you use...? :/

I just structure my text blocks so that they don't reach the right side of the screen. Use the carriage return at around 1/2 to 3/4 the bar.Meant "What," bad on my part.

Oh... That is funny, "Whant". Ok, I would just advise reading over everything before you show it in Public (Midnight found some small spelling errors on my map when I tested privately. He is my "Spell Checker"... Funny...

[MidnightGladius]

Meh, this topic has derailed itself.

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

K, we all know I suck at grammer and spelling. About the wall pallets. I was playing a map 'Huanted School' and It was in an installation map. I looked at the walls, It didn't look that random, but they really didn't look like it was professinal or anything. Maybe its just me, but I can't tell if they did them on porpose or not.

[Fronter]

I was playing a map 'Huanted School'
Haunted, not Huanted.

I looked at the walls, It didn't look that random, but they really didn't look like it was professinal or anything. Maybe its just me, but I can't tell if they did them on porpose or not.It was random... There were computers everywhere, on the little hallways and of such.

[MidnightGladius]

Yeah, when you see computers in random places, it's usually not a good thing. :/

[Kingscrab]

I am reformed.

While working on a new map, i thought about this little "making the terrain uniform" (as suggested by Fronter) discussion, and even though it took a little while, it DOES look a hell of a lot better. Just wanted to resurrect this thread to say "thanks for the tip!" ;)

[Fronter]

"thanks for the tip!" ;)Glad this inactive person could help you.