View Full Version : Katrina Victims...
With the devastation and destruction that our fellow citizens here in the United States has suffered due to Hurricane Katrina, and reading the usual mindless rantings from most of you, I find it sad that we find our priorities completely in the wrong place. Yes, the Battle.net servers are lagging, hence why there is a scheduled maitanance tonight. Since most of you will have some free time on your hands due to not being able to play, I have a strong suggestion to make.
Skip something of a social nature that you had planned to do. Whether it be a video game, a pizza night, an evening out at the movies. Just take one night or one purchase and set it aside. Donate to help those in New Orleans and all the areas along the gulf affected by the tragedy that we vividly see in the news.
Contact your local Red Cross, and ask how you can help. Whether it be your dollars or your time, if you live in Texas, which 3 cities at this time are hosting refugees, seek out any events or activities in your local area that are in dire need of volunteers. These are our neighbors, our brothers and sisters, our elderly and children. Though our government has been slow to help, help is something these neighbors desperately need. These people have lost everything they have and most have nowhere to go and no future to look upon warmly without our help.
To contact the Red Cross nationally:
1-800-HELP-NOW
http://www.redcross.org/
If you can afford video games, DVDs, and fast food, then you can afford to help.
I knew it could be said better. Listen to this person.
-Neo
Alas for one side and glad by the other, I can't do much of a direct help since ain't an U.S.'er.
But my condolences / sympathy go to the ones who suffer/suffered this tragedy none the less, along with the volunteers that are providing with the means that they've got at hands. :)
Kingscrab
09-02-2005, 8:41 AM
Alas for one side and glad by the other, I can't do much of a direct help since ain't an U.S.'er.
But my condolences / sympathy go to the ones who suffer/suffered this tragedy none the less, along with the volunteers that are providing with the means that they've got at hands. :) I suspect the Red Cross wouldn't say no to a donation of a few Euros... or any other currency for that matter. ;)
https://secure2.convio.net/arc/site/Donation?ACTION=SHOW_DONATION_OPTIONS&CAMPAIGN_ID=1161
I'm going to donate this week, maybe $25-50 I can do without Starbucks for a few weeks, that's the least I can do.
One suggestion, make certain you're donating to "real" charities. The Red Cross is the most reputable as far as I can tell.
Aquarian
09-02-2005, 9:02 AM
I've got no money...Not.
I've already donated some.
Kingscrab
09-02-2005, 9:05 AM
One suggestion, make certain you're donating to "real" charities. The Red Cross is the most reputable as far as I can tell. They are the only one i'd send money to, personally.
It's real easy! And fun guys! C'MON! It's like three clicks and type in a credit card number!
COW BELLERS UNITE! *CLANG! CLANG!*
20 bucks will buy a lot of bottled water & Hot Dogs!
DO IT! :D
I suspect the Red Cross wouldn't say no to a donation of a few Euros... or any other currency for that matter. ;)
https://secure2.convio.net/arc/site/Donation?ACTION=SHOW_DONATION_OPTIONS&CAMPAIGN_ID= 1161 ("https://secure2.convio.net/arc/site/Donation?ACTION=SHOW_DONATION_OPTIONS&CAMPAIGN_ID= 1161")
Already gave'em in the Asian tsunami disaster of last X-mas, so I hope you won't bother if pass this one. And if one of the most rich/industrialized countries in the world hasn't the means to suffice it's own needs (read temporary shelters, food supplies, rebuilding, etc.), than we're all screwed. ;p
Kingscrab
09-02-2005, 9:55 AM
Already gave'em in the Asian tsunami disaster of last X-mas, so I hope you won't bother if pass this one. And if one of the most rich/industrialized countries in the world hasn't the means to suffice it's own needs (read temporary shelters, food supplies, rebuilding, etc.), than we're all screwed. ;p Hmm... *scratches head*
Nationalities aside, people are still suffering. :confused:
Already gave'em in the Asian tsunami disaster of last X-mas, so I hope you won't bother if pass this one. And if one of the most rich/industrialized countries in the world hasn't the means to suffice it's own needs (read temporary shelters, food supplies, rebuilding, etc.), than we're all screwed. ;p
No offense to your personally, but is the United States only of importance when we're sending money elsewhere?
TranquilNightElf
09-02-2005, 11:48 AM
I just caught this on the news and was just shocked ...
And now looting and armed gangs
:(
I pray that the people find the strength to get through this tragedy alright.
My company starts a fund for such disasters, like they did for the Tsunami, and I support them in donations, though I agree with Nuts, that if anyone else wants to find a worthy channel, the Red Cross is a safe bet.
TinyDancer
09-02-2005, 12:15 PM
I've been donating time, Volunteering at the FoodBank and such. America needs to pull together and take care of this thing!
Basan
09-02-2005, 12:19 PM
Hmm... *scratches head*
Nationalities aside, people are still suffering. :confused:
Don't get me wrong here, please. I know that the money I gave in that situation is/was/will be used by Red Cross as it pleases, but I personally think that there are situations of similar grievance continuously repeating itselves in other places (Africa for one) and aren't really focused upon as they should. :concern:
I do also realize that it may seemed terribly unthoughtful, but my point was that only when need knocks on our doorstep we look around more with consciousness for needy and poor (wich we should look into more often). Who recalls the conflicts in Africa and the constant misery level that thrives those lands on a regular basis? No one, or almost no one. :( "Do to others what you would like done to you", that's all am trying to pass over here.
My point is to give what you can while you can, not only when remembered/needed. So that's why I gave before, justifying (myself) with the lack of basic conditions the countries in that region *Gasp*3rd world*Gasp* usually have and that were plummeted farther downhill with the tsunami. I give every year for the AMI (Internacional Medic Association) of my country to assist in Africa and other 3rd world countries and alas for thee reached my yearly donation limit (can't afford to give more with my budget). Wich I also hope that explains my point on why not contributing more to this cause, because in average my country's salaries are 1/3 worth the rest of most EU countries. :cry:
No offense to your personally, but is the United States only of importance when we're sending money elsewhere?
It seems that you both have missed my point... please refer to the above statements on recalling misery only when it drops by. And even though, planning and preventing for one of the world powers should be better dealt and eased to pull with, just not with the "it only happens to others" feel. :shiftyl:
*Off-topic (random) example* For example (and from an outsider PoV), lets get the WMD's in Iraq before they make impact damage. - To me this was worse then planning an thorough, swift invasion to clense the problem and set a democracy in no time flat (notice that most coallition military deaths occured shortly after the overthrowning, due to bad planning and/or intel on what to really do/counter in any predictable situation). *Back on track*
Have you by any chance also noticed that these weather 'natural' disasters are coming to be more frequent than what they used to be in say... 10 years ago? So, imho, a more environmental awareness look should be in order to (at least) minimize the nefarious impacts industries may have upon the climate as well, and just not picking up the pieces afterwards (this applies and should be taken into consideration by all of us). Preventing by/and investigating what could be the causes and trying to sever those eventual situations from developing into worse scenarios, like the current one in New Orleans.
Have you by any chance also noticed that these weather 'natural' disasters are coming to be more frequent than what they used to be in say... 10 years ago? So, imho, a more environmental awareness look should be in order
In 1933, there were 21 recognized hurricanes, do you think that was caused by global warming? The deadliest hurricane on record hit Galveston, Texas in 1900 killing 8000+ people, do you think global warming caused that?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/national/30cycle.html
Because hurricanes form over warm ocean water, it is easy to assume that the recent rise in their number and ferocity is because of global warming.
But that is not the case, scientists say. Instead, the severity of hurricane seasons changes with cycles of temperatures of several decades in the Atlantic Ocean. The recent onslaught "is very much natural," said William M. Gray, a professor of atmospheric science at Colorado State University who issues forecasts for the hurricane season.
Ref. http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastdead.html Deadliest Hurricanes
In 1933, there were 21 recognized hurricanes, do you think that was caused by global warming? The deadliest hurricane on record hit Galveston, Texas in 1900 killing 8000+ people, do you think global warming caused that?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/national/30cycle.html
Ref. http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastdead.html Deadliest Hurricanes
Its been said that just recently has the 'cycle' of hurricanes have picked back up. People just don't realize how deadly it is living on the coast like that.
-Neo
Markpyro
09-02-2005, 4:56 PM
I wish I could donate... I have no money whatsover. My thoughts and prayers to them every day, though.
well in my city there are hurricane victums being taken to an old Wall-Mart.
Now that i site down and think, i am almost glad that my parents got devorced whin i was 2 years old. Or i would be one of Katrina's victomes. My life is a sad story:(. Devorse, foster care for 2 years:(. I have lived in over 11 houses all over florida and maine in the past 13 years. My live is so sad I have not even seen my own dam mother and brothers in over 7 years:cry::cry:. But that is not even nearly as bad if none of that had happend and my parents were sill mareid and i still lived in florada. I would be :blowup:
GrassDragon
09-03-2005, 2:34 PM
The saddest thing about all this is the crime now going on in New Orleans. Gangs, looting, and violence are running rampant. The last running hospital in the city had to be shut down because a truck that was delivering supplies to it was hijacked by people en route. People stampede buses and shoot at rescue helicopters. The armed forces have had to switch completely over from rescuing people to stopping looting.
It's a sad thing :(
That is because every one there has so little. In florida, people are so desprete to servive and to protect there stuff they now make sines and put them on there lawns that say.
"you loot, we shoot."
one family is so despret they have a 7 year old girl with a loaded shotgun sitting in a chaire by the sine.
kongurous
09-03-2005, 2:52 PM
In Florida? Last I checked, the hurricane didn't hit Florida that hard. Hell, it barely hit at all!
Ya but it did hit it some what. Hurricanes do get to be thousends of miles wide.
Xenon
09-05-2005, 11:46 PM
Ya but it did hit it some what. Hurricanes do get to be thousends of miles wide.
That might be a teeny exaggeration... Hurricanes get to be hundreds of miles across, though typically I think they fall in the range of 100 - 200 miles across.
THOUSANDS of miles wide would mean that when the eye of the storm hit N'Awlins, the leading edge was wreaking havoc in New York and Denver simultaneously.
--That would be the storm of the millenium...
kongurous
09-05-2005, 11:55 PM
Ya but it did hit it some what. Hurricanes do get to be thousends of miles wide.
Doesn't mean there'd be flooding that severe...
TinyDancer
09-06-2005, 6:58 PM
Hey you guys..Today on the news they were showing the Red Cross, and you know what they do whenever they find someone they were looking for? They ring a cowbell!!!! *clang*
Kingscrab
09-07-2005, 8:09 AM
Hey you guys..Today on the news they were showing the Red Cross, and you know what they do whenever they find someone they were looking for? They ring a cowbell!!!! *clang* That's AWESOME!
Here's to many thousands of ringing cowbells!!!!!!!!!! :beer:
Aretak
09-07-2005, 2:10 PM
It is a tragedy...But, don't you think those people should have thought about that when they moved there? A place that gets hurricanes only, well, every year! I feel for them but, hello? Hurricanes are common place down there!
It is a tragedy...But, don't you think those people should have thought about that when they moved there? A place that gets hurricanes only, well, every year! I feel for them but, hello? Hurricanes are common place down there!
Moved there? And what about those who live there in generations that haven't the monetary means to move elsewhere, wich are the majority of the town's population from what I can tell... :P
Also the geographical placement of N.Orleans doesn't help that much, since it's below water level (the hurricane blew the damns system apart). Most of the current problems were caused by this. :(
Gosh, le'mme guess... you had the chance to choose where ya did want to live when a kid (assuming that your ol' folks granted that spoiled brat's wish?). Just consider yourself lucky that you don't have to pass through what's goin' down there. With that latest martial law (read, obligational curfew) and all related unfortunate jazz. :shiftyl:
GenocideAlive
09-09-2005, 11:48 AM
It is a tragedy...But, don't you think those people should have thought about that when they moved there? A place that gets hurricanes only, well, every year! I feel for them but, hello? Hurricanes are common place down there!
While insensitive and rather brash it rings of truth. I advocate help and support for these people (and try to contribute) by all means, but ultimately the responsibility will and does lie with them.
Unfortunately we all choose to live where we do to some extent. There are a few instances of people being out of the monetary means to move away their entire lives, but those are a scant minority. If you live in Mexico and it suddenly has a heatwave killing people, not too many people drum up money to help out. The logic goes, if you live somewhere hot, get ready for heat. Same for people freezing to death in winter in Iceland. If you live on the coast, you should be ready for hurricanes. :/
And it's not surprising to hear a few remarks about the US being left to take care of itself in comparison to other countries. This sort of psychological predisposition has been thoroughly studied and well documented in sibling rivalries, where older sibilings are often held responsible for their actions and their younger sibling's actions; meanwhile the younger sibling isn't even held fully accountable for their own actions. For instance, a younger sibling strikes an older sibling in the face--the older sibling hits back. The younger sibling begins bawling (perhaps melodramatic) and the older sibling is immediately scolded and sent to their room with the basis that the younger sibling didn't really harm them and is otherwise considered helpless. The same scenario a few days later, the younger sibling colors on the walls while the older sibling colors oblivious on paper nearby. The older sibling is scolded because he/she "knew better" than to "allow" the younger sibling to color on the walls. Another few days later, the younger sibling is annoying the older sibling by making a noise and poking him/her. They tell their parents, and their parents give a perfunctory half-assed "don't do that" to the younger sibling. After a few hours of this game, they're both punished; the younger sibling for being annoying and the older sibling for being a "tattletale".
At this stage the older sibling begins to develop resentment towards the younger sibling, because no matter what direction they take, they always get into trouble with the younger sibling around. The younger sibling, detecting a threat to their place/person/things makes every effort to make a victim of themselves to curry more attention and favor.
A very clear connection to this scenario and the behavior of nations dealing with international opinion has been drawn multiple times. No matter how many times the smaller/weaker nation picks the fight, it will always be the larger/stronger nation that will draw the most criticism from international opinion. They're supposed to be a cornucopia of understanding, truth, justice, and love, even if they're being kicked in the balls over and over. Since they're so "mighty" and "tough", they're supposed to be impervious to thoughts and feelings that define humans.
Mexican troops are here, in the us, first time 100 years or something O_o
My grandparents made a sizable donation to the red cross (meaning they donated $1000 or more -- they are pretty well off).
-Neo
Doom_Dragoon
09-11-2005, 8:44 PM
Hoorah Air Force! Greetings from Keesler AFB, MS! I was actually in the hurricane, believe it or not. Keesler, for those of you who do not know, is a military traing base (mostly Air Force personnel) in Biloxi, Mississippi. The base iteself is fine so to speak, but we have a lot of cleaning up to do. They completely halted all training withing Keesler and sent 1100 out of the 1500 people to Shepard AFB, TX. 400 "volunteers" were asked to stay and help get the base back up and running. I say "volunteers", because there is a word in the military called "volen-tell". A wonderful thing it is... :/ Anyway, we've been hard at work for the past 2 weeks getting everything back to the way it was. School wasn't said to be back up and running until March of next year and we would be cleaning up until then, originally, but we were told today that it will be sometime next week. There are more than 2000 people living on base here who are still trying to find somewhere to live. I am personally glad I was volentold to stay, but almost all of the people I had met here went to Shepard and won't be back even though school is starting back up soon. That's the only thing that sucks.
It sucked in the beginning, no electricity, MREs for every meal, and crowding. We at least had good running water on base. Off-base was and still is a different story. After 2 weeks though, we have almost everything back up and running. It gets better each day. Every meal now is a hot one and we are finally getting a selection again. I'll try to keep you guys posted on what's going on here. If you have any questions, let me know. We have briefings here and there and I could ask my superiors the questions you have, saying they are legit.
On the side, I am kinda liking the Air Force thus far. I go to the rank of E-3 in January, so I'm looking forward to that. Once I get Command Chief Master Sergeant though, I'll really be set. E-9 here I come!
...
Unfortunately we all choose to live where we do to some extent. There are a few instances of people being out of the monetary means to move away their entire lives, but those are a scant minority. If you live in Mexico and it suddenly has a heatwave killing people, not too many people drum up money to help out. The logic goes, if you live somewhere hot, get ready for heat. Same for people freezing to death in winter in Iceland. If you live on the coast, you should be ready for hurricanes. :/
Allow me to disagree. (Alas) I still live in my parents house and their house was sorta of a testament heritage.
That remark of dealing with the weather as were you're 'bunked' at does sound a lot more like a justification effect than an actual debating arguement... And I live near the coast (6 Kms in a straight line) and we never had a hurricane here, so you're 'irrefutable' stance is more moot than anything else imo. :angel:
And it's not surprising to hear a few remarks about the US being left to take care of itself in comparison to other countries. This sort of psychological predisposition has been thoroughly studied and well documented in sibling rivalries, where older sibilings are often held responsible for their actions and their younger sibling's actions; meanwhile the younger sibling isn't even held fully accountable for their own actions. For instance, a younger sibling strikes an older sibling in the face--the older sibling hits back. The younger sibling begins bawling (perhaps melodramatic) and the older sibling is immediately scolded and sent to their room with the basis that the younger sibling didn't really harm them and is otherwise considered helpless. The same scenario a few days later, the younger sibling colors on the walls while the older sibling colors oblivious on paper nearby. The older sibling is scolded because he/she "knew better" than to "allow" the younger sibling to color on the walls. Another few days later, the younger sibling is annoying the older sibling by making a noise and poking him/her. They tell their parents, and their parents give a perfunctory half-assed "don't do that" to the younger sibling. After a few hours of this game, they're both punished; the younger sibling for being annoying and the older sibling for being a "tattletale".
At this stage the older sibling begins to develop resentment towards the younger sibling, because no matter what direction they take, they always get into trouble with the younger sibling around. The younger sibling, detecting a threat to their place/person/things makes every effort to make a victim of themselves to curry more attention and favor.
A very clear connection to this scenario and the behavior of nations dealing with international opinion has been drawn multiple times. No matter how many times the smaller/weaker nation picks the fight, it will always be the larger/stronger nation that will draw the most criticism from international opinion. They're supposed to be a cornucopia of understanding, truth, justice, and love, even if they're being kicked in the balls over and over. Since they're so "mighty" and "tough", they're supposed to be impervious to thoughts and feelings that define humans.
Nice predisposition to say that the U.S. are being blamed for allowing this to happen in such large scale by mere comparing with nations with lesser finantial means to deal with it too. Another 'good Bushie' arguement if I ever saw one. This isn't about Al-Quaeda, Iraq or any others that may be deemed to start/started any rivalry with the U.S., but instead the handling of a disastrous situation that took place and imho could've been better prevented (wich it wasn't :P).
Don't you think that with the warnings being aired in the previous 48h of the "Katrina" hitting N.Orleans some military forces couldn't have been dispatched to assist folks, mainly the less favoured ones (in the finantial dept., that is) on the evacuating process and protecting (if not even salvaging) possible possessions to withstand better to that force of nature? I think it could've been done and not just the 'curative measure' that was only took upon afterwards the disaster occuring. Preventive planning and real caring (protecting or whatever) would've done better by far imho, my friend. ;)
GenocideAlive
09-12-2005, 1:00 PM
Allow me to disagree. (Alas) I still live in my parents house and their house was sorta of a testament heritage.
That remark of dealing with the weather as were you're 'bunked' at does sound a lot more like a justification effect than an actual debating arguement... And I live near the coast (6 Kms in a straight line) and we never had a hurricane here, so you're 'irrefutable' stance is more moot than anything else imo. :angel:
Apparently you're not attempting to disagree, but rather seizing the opportunity to be snide. Sorry, but you choose where you live. Your "sorta" obligation to live in your parent's house isn't one. It's your choice to stay. The rest of that paragraph doesn't make much sense, so I'm going to just wait for you to clarify it.
Nice predisposition to say that the U.S. are being blamed for allowing this to happen in such large scale by mere comparing with nations with lesser finantial means to deal with it too. Another 'good Bushie' arguement if I ever saw one. This isn't about Al-Quaeda, Iraq or any others that may be deemed to start/started any rivalry with the U.S., but instead the handling of a disastrous situation that took place and imho could've been better prevented (wich it wasn't :P).
I was pointing out a studied experiment in psychology. Your immediate inferrence of the Iraq, Al-Quaeda[sic], etc. are your own; I didn't mention any of those. Your remark concerning your apparent vitriol towards President Bush qualifies as well--he was never mentioned either. I don't expect much else from people that have never even seen New Orleans and are pantomiming what they've seen on the news. Your "humble opinion", as you put it, isn't very humble nor is it very informed. I'd put an inane smiley face here, but I'll just assume that my writing and tone precludes the usage of childish devices to misdirect.
Don't you think that with the warnings being aired in the previous 48h of the "Katrina" hitting N.Orleans some military forces couldn't have been dispatched to assist folks, mainly the less favoured ones (in the finantial dept., that is) on the evacuating process and protecting (if not even salvaging) possible possessions to withstand better to that force of nature? I think it could've been done and not just the 'curative measure' that was only took upon afterwards the disaster occuring. Preventive planning and real caring (protecting or whatever) would've done better by far imho, my friend. ;)
I'm not your friend, and your constant attempts at belittling me and my country's efforts seem to point to that well enough. This paragraph qualifies as the quintessential heart of my earlier point. If hundreds of thousands die in Asia from a tsunami that no residents knew was coming, they are pitied and loved as not having any chance. If a thousand to two thousand die in the US from a hurricane while ignoring a Federal order to evacuate, it's some sort of horrible tragedy that the government should have somehow prevented. I guess they should have used the military to force people out at gunpoint, then throw themselves into the hurricane until it dissapated?
Speaking as someone that has relatives in both Mississippi and Louisiana, there were plenty of stories about "lines of cars at the gas pumps". This means that those that DIDN'T leave earlier now "somehow" gained the means to do so. Or wait--was it that they failed to heed the order by choice, and when it reamed them they expected the same people that warned them to leave to bail them out? Well, they did anyway without question.
But they didn't have the means for the scale of people who ignored warnings, nor the people shooting at rescuers. I'm not really sure if any government does or should have the means to deal with 50,000 stranded coastal people in three day's time. Transportation relies heavily on roadways, and New Orleans' roadways were mostly bridges. That were destroyed.
Everybody keeps acting shocked that people died in squallor after a Category 5 hurricane hit...I sincerely would like to know, what did they expect?
Glad_2_bestoned
09-15-2005, 7:21 PM
every one in new orleans had to evacuate, just thinking of it its scary.
Basan
09-16-2005, 11:07 AM
Apparently you're not attempting to disagree, but rather seizing the opportunity to be snide. Sorry, but you choose where you live. Your "sorta" obligation to live in your parent's house isn't one. It's your choice to stay. The rest of that paragraph doesn't make much sense, so I'm going to just wait for you to clarify it.
*Sigh* Yeah, I've choosen where to live at my 1st B-day...
Although after the adult age (18 here), you're right. Or you'd stick at your parents house or you can choose to move, unless you don't have the finantial stabillity to do so... as spoken before.
If you still didn't or don't want to grasp these concepts, that's your PoV and not all folks forcefull one to be solely held in high regard.
I was pointing out a studied experiment in psychology. Your immediate inferrence of the Iraq, Al-Quaeda[sic], etc. are your own; I didn't mention any of those. Your remark concerning your apparent vitriol towards President Bush qualifies as well--he was never mentioned either. I don't expect much else from people that have never even seen New Orleans and are pantomiming what they've seen on the news. Your "humble opinion", as you put it, isn't very humble nor is it very informed. I'd put an inane smiley face here, but I'll just assume that my writing and tone precludes the usage of childish devices to misdirect.
Pin point it, please. I'd like to see those (studies).
And I've made a comparison example to that what it seemed to me like your real 'belly aching' - fussing with Bush's poor decisions (now and in past occasions). He and his Admin' already admitted to have acted with neglect towards the real potential danger of that situation before it literally 'landed on their laps'.
If you don't like it ("War on Terror" comparison), you can always direct yourself some place else. And if you're wrongly naming my arguements as petty, just check around here 'cause have sent my condolences and sympathies at the victims of the disaster itself before this. I just resent the missfit manner the issue was handled in the 1st place, as an Safety officer's opinion.
See the L.A.'s greatest earthquake as a more worthy comparison point. Since it was more sudden, therefore less more preventive measures were taken and the emergency tools (read human and/or machinery like) were more quickly dispatched to the site than in this specific scenario. Wasn't that previous experience an unveilling of what could happen again (looting, floods, gas pipelining explosions, debrees' burrowed ppl, etc. etc.)? And with the latest technological developments and the pre-catastrophe sparing time, couldn't it be steadily minimized as it ought to?
I'm not your friend, and your constant attempts at belittling me and my country's efforts seem to point to that well enough. This paragraph qualifies as the quintessential heart of my earlier point. If hundreds of thousands die in Asia from a tsunami that no residents knew was coming, they are pitied and loved as not having any chance. If a thousand to two thousand die in the US from a hurricane while ignoring a Federal order to evacuate, it's some sort of horrible tragedy that the government should have somehow prevented. I guess they should have used the military to force people out at gunpoint, then throw themselves into the hurricane until it dissapated?
Speaking as someone that has relatives in both Mississippi and Louisiana, there were plenty of stories about "lines of cars at the gas pumps". This means that those that DIDN'T leave earlier now "somehow" gained the means to do so. Or wait--was it that they failed to heed the order by choice, and when it reamed them they expected the same people that warned them to leave to bail them out? Well, they did anyway without question.
But they didn't have the means for the scale of people who ignored warnings, nor the people shooting at rescuers. I'm not really sure if any government does or should have the means to deal with 50,000 stranded coastal people in three day's time. Transportation relies heavily on roadways, and New Orleans' roadways were mostly bridges. That were destroyed.
Everybody keeps acting shocked that people died in squallor after a Category 5 hurricane hit...I sincerely would like to know, what did they expect?
1st of all, ain't your friend nor I'm interested in becoming one so far. It was a metaphorical way of speech but since you seem to be taking literal most of my wordings, will leave it at that. :shiftyl:
Btw, If I was an U.S. citizen that would state the exact same thoughts what would it be the real difference? Answer: None what so ever.
Am solely pointing that it could have been better prevented as would do if that happened over here (not just that 'move out of the way' excuse routine, because it can't be really held nor considered to be the major societies' prevention plan at this point in existance). It may be a 'trade deffect' but I hate poor, lacking missconcept planning n' no one can blame me for stating that or even showing my disapproval upon the way it was dealt with in the pre-dawns of it. Wouldn't it be of worth sending means nearer to the disaster's site vicinities to quicker get into solving and/or minimizing the collateral damage that has happened later on? Getting handy on the geographical displays of that area in order to see the weakest point(s) that may've been reinforced (damns system, for one) or even countered (since it's below water level, amphibious crafts would've come greatly appreciated wouldn't they)? As you can see the list of potential measures / counter-measures isn't that summed up as you seem showing it to be, so quit the attempts to shun down my PoV's because those weren't that unthoughted as you infer'em to be.
And I haven't stated to force folks outta there, but instead that the unresourcefull ones could've been preventively aided a lot more.
As for the gas pump lines (aka by you to be folks now leaving the site's whereabouts), it really isn't anyone else's fault that the persons who decided to remain against the aired warnings are stubborn / lack good sense enough to risk their own lives.
Afterall this is a debating forum, ppl are entitled to have their own opinion and if you don't/didn't like it nor are willing to coexist (even if don't agreeing) with those, that's your problem not mine really.
If you do still want to debate how it would be better prevented and how I'd have done it, please make a new thread about how it could've been (better) dealt with or PM me for settling this - in the prevention field hypothesis arena. Since I don't want to blow out of proportion a thread that was supposed to show understanding and maybe caring towards this disasters' victims, from onwards of this point will try to keep it clean.
GenocideAlive
09-16-2005, 7:12 PM
And if you're wrongly naming my arguements as petty, just check around here 'cause have sent my condolences and sympathies at the victims of the disaster itself before this. I just resent the missfit manner the issue was handled in the 1st place, as an Safety officer's opinion.
You don't understand how the issue was handled; you only saw the result from the perspective of the media. No-one has an understanding, because no-one has had the opportunity to investigate. Feel free to point to what was done improperly and how it could have been better handled. But don't watch TV and start talking about how much you know of New Orleans and what happened. You know only what the media has spoon fed you.
Btw, If I was an U.S. citizen that would state the exact same thoughts what would it be the real difference? Answer: None what so ever.
You're right. If you were from Alaska and talking about it, I still wouldn't give a damn. However, if you were from Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, or Florida, or had first-hand relatives from such, I'd give you far more creedence. You, like many others, are running your mouth about something that you have zero firsthand knowledge of. You watch TV, see whatever the news programs want you to see, and form an opinion based on it. Now you're attempting to discredit my opinion with what you saw in the news. I have relatives and friends who were in Katrina, and I spoke to them before, during, and after. You have no basis for undermining what I know from 3-4 unbiased firsthand accounts AND the local/national news. I lived Katrina, we helped house evacuees in Austin, we drove to Mississippi and Louisiana to retreive relatives and bring supplies; you saw it on the news from thousands of miles away.
no one can blame me for stating that or even showing my disapproval upon the way it was dealt with in the pre-dawns of it.
Afterall this is a debating forum, ppl are entitled to have their own opinion and if you don't/didn't like it nor are willing to coexist (even if don't agreeing) with those, that's your problem not mine really.
I can agree 100% about your disapproval. Given your repeated attacks on the President the alacrity with which you bring up his other, completely unrelated foreign policy choices, this doesn't even seem to be your motive. And while you're entitled to your opinion, when you post it and try to dress it up as some kind of truth, I am entitled to voice my opinion in regards to yours.
I think you are uninformed and have ulterior motives for your opinion regarding Katrina. It took two posts before you were mentioning the Presidency, Iraq, and several other foreign policy desicions involving the President. If you want to talk about all the failures of the President and his administration to this point, start another thread--I'm sure you guys can get up a whole mess of posts. In the meantime, please make this thread about Katrina and its victims.
Glad_2_bestoned
09-16-2005, 7:14 PM
the greatest catastrophic that happend in america was the hurricane that hit texas some time ago, I dont' know much about this incident ;)
kharne
09-19-2005, 12:53 PM
Meh...I live in Canada. The only time I would donate money to the red cross is if I was hit by a hurricane. A whole city devastated....WHOA!! It's about time the U.S.A. got a kick in the ass. I mean a whole city!!! When I heard the news on BBC the first thing that came to mind was the word AWESOME. And how awesome I really am. Sort of a personal thing so I am off at a tear...*wah*
ShadeZ
09-20-2005, 8:22 PM
If I had a credit card I would donate money.
Natural disasters are bad, but I don't think they're as bad as wars, and attacks, because when humans are purposely doing this to other humans, it just shows that they really don't care, and that humans can be that heartless embarrasses me as another human being.
However, with so many people losing their lives, all at once, it is just really sad. You can look at it from a not caring sort of perspective, but when I think that it could have been somebody I know... *shudder*
You don't understand how the issue was handled; you only saw the result from the perspective of the media. No-one has an understanding, because no-one has had the opportunity to investigate. Feel free to point to what was done improperly and how it could have been better handled. But don't watch TV and start talking about how much you know of New Orleans and what happened. You know only what the media has spoon fed you.
Don't place words into my mouth, please. Funny thing, though, since I don't recall anyone calling the media biased / unaccurate in similar situations for instance (read, last X-mas asian Tsunami). Perhaps with a coverage excess but other than that, no biggie.
Never have said to know N.Orleans but since it's one of the towns below water level (note that they don't burry their dead in there) and that have had some previous backgrounding dealing with those. And I've saying through out these latest days the measures that could've been better taken. See for example the "Rita" approach... Now I've seen folks speaking of the simulation exercises and no one is minimizing the aired warnings like was previously done. (And luckily it has passed without the same level of destruction, except for a few areas.)
You're right. If you were from Alaska and talking about it, I still wouldn't give a damn. However, if you were from Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, or Florida, or had first-hand relatives from such, I'd give you far more creedence. You, like many others, are running your mouth about something that you have zero firsthand knowledge of. You watch TV, see whatever the news programs want you to see, and form an opinion based on it. Now you're attempting to discredit my opinion with what you saw in the news. I have relatives and friends who were in Katrina, and I spoke to them before, during, and after. You have no basis for undermining what I know from 3-4 unbiased firsthand accounts AND the local/national news. I lived Katrina, we helped house evacuees in Austin, we drove to Mississippi and Louisiana to retreive relatives and bring supplies; you saw it on the news from thousands of miles away.
Here you go mixing stuff up again. Ain't trying to descredit your opinion but instead the way things were handled with. How many times do I have to re-state that already have training on how to deal with those (read, am a Safety Officer) and from what I've took insights from - especially when compared with to Rita - it was poorly dealt with in, either in prevention planning and/or minimizing aftermath effects?
And just because you lived it doesn't exactly make you an expert or to be held as a failproof reasoning. You could've missed some points, as so could I. Therefore, lets please quit the "I've got better knowledge upon this than you" routine, shall we? We're not heading anywhere new with this account. :)
I can agree 100% about your disapproval. Given your repeated attacks on the President the alacrity with which you bring up his other, completely unrelated foreign policy choices, this doesn't even seem to be your motive. And while you're entitled to your opinion, when you post it and try to dress it up as some kind of truth, I am entitled to voice my opinion in regards to yours.
I think you are uninformed and have ulterior motives for your opinion regarding Katrina. It took two posts before you were mentioning the Presidency, Iraq, and several other foreign policy desicions involving the President. If you want to talk about all the failures of the President and his administration to this point, start another thread--I'm sure you guys can get up a whole mess of posts. In the meantime, please make this thread about Katrina and its victims.
Ah, now we're getting somewhere. I respect your opinion n' you'll respect mine, even though not fully agreeing with each other. Thus some other reasonings may shed some light into this deal. ;)
For instance, why are you insisting that it never had nothing to do with Bush's Administration when it really had? He can be held somewhat responsible (http://www.apfn.org/APFN/KATRINA.HTM), although not solely responsible (read, also thinking local state organizations). They all could've at least minimized impact in the human losses presented over there, if promptly deployed short after (it passed). (Hint: Please watch the 1st 3 links, such as the BBC World video and the other 2 provided there, including the focused manual. :smirk:
..., enabled by networked forces, is a methodology for planning, executing, and assessing military operations designed to attain specific effects that achieve desired national security outcomes.
...
These changes have been dominated by the co-evolution of economics, information technology, and business processes and organizations and they are linked by three themes:
• The shift in focus from the platform to the network;
• The shift from viewing actors as independent to viewing them as part of a continuously adapting ecosystem; and
• The importance of making strategic choices to adapt or even survive in such changing ecosystems.)
This will be my last reply to this since you so vehemently ask it so but still leave behind some points I've raised/asked (such as poor planning/minimizing disaster measures, Bush admitting neglect, studies).
That being said and already having mentioned before that we should leave this be (plus my points) makes this debate sound... *uhm* repeating itself over and over again? :concern:
So, I'll leave this alone since have already presented some shred of evidence you seemed to be asking for, even if it was in the implied form.
GenocideAlive
09-28-2005, 12:56 PM
So, after government agencies have gone into some of the areas that were claimed to but "utterly devastated", they've apparently learned an important lesson.
N.O. reporters were claiming that there were "upwards of 10,000 dead", and they've found around a grand total 1,000 dead from the entirety of MS, AL, and LA. They also claimed that there were "hundreds dead" in the N.O. Convention Center, and there were 4; only one of which was determined to be a product of malintent. The "mass rapings" that were also being reported have gone vastly underreported, if they ever existed. Gang activity, gunmen, and violence that ran supposedly rampant also left no evidence of themselves behind.
All in all, it would appear that the media has made a business of reporting sensationalist hearsay as fact rather than investing any time in actual journalism. So if you were, say, some foreigner off on a different continent talking about the "tragedies of Hurricane Katrina", you would have been simply repeating what multiple, multiple news sources are now retracting or trying to blame on the people that they quoted.
It's as though some divine force wants to own the hell out of your baseless criticisms that are based solely on partisanship and non-factual sensationalism.
You're right. If you were from Alaska and talking about it, I still wouldn't give a damn. However, if you were from Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, or Florida, or had first-hand relatives from such, I'd give you far more creedence. You, like many others, are running your mouth about something that you have zero firsthand knowledge of.
I have no firsthand knowledge of the holocaust, would you want me to not form an opinion on that?
You watch TV, see whatever the news programs want you to see, and form an opinion based on it. Now you're attempting to discredit my opinion with what you saw in the news. I have relatives and friends who were in Katrina, and I spoke to them before, during, and after. You have no basis for undermining what I know from 3-4 unbiased firsthand accounts AND the local/national news. I lived Katrina, we helped house evacuees in Austin, we drove to Mississippi and Louisiana to retreive relatives and bring supplies; you saw it on the news from thousands of miles away.
I would say that there is no such thing as an unbiased account, I take my opinions from every source I can get my hands on. Television, newspapers, internet. Not a single one of them is unbiased, but as I have said, no source is.
All in all, it would appear that the media has made a business of reporting sensationalist hearsay as fact rather than investing any time in actual journalism. So if you were, say, some foreigner off on a different continent talking about the "tragedies of Hurricane Katrina"
What the media blowing things out of proportion to make money? Surely not.
And okay, I am "some foreigner" from your perspective, you are a "damn colonial" to me, lets not get into that. So I will NOT talk about the tragedies of hurricane katrina, obviously it was not so bad and I wont donate any money to the relief effort either because I have no firsthand experience of hurricanes.
theotherdraxen
09-30-2005, 9:03 PM
Meh...I live in Canada. The only time I would donate money to the red cross is if I was hit by a hurricane. A whole city devastated....WHOA!! It's about time the U.S.A. got a kick in the ass. I mean a whole city!!! When I heard the news on BBC the first thing that came to mind was the word AWESOME. And how awesome I really am. Sort of a personal thing so I am off at a tear...*wah*
First: Americans are less at fault for things in the world than you may think. Did we kill 10 million Jews, or was that Germany? Oh no, that was Hitler, not Germany. So why was only Hitler blamed for the Holocaust, but America as a whole is blamed for EVERY thing any American does wrong?
Think about it: if a Spaniard saves three kids from a burning building (excuse the cliché), Spain will be given the credit. If an American saves those kids, he/she alone will receive it.
Second: Where was the modern idea of Democracy and the Republic founded? In America! True, the Inuit gave us the founding of the confederacy, the Athenian Greeks Democracy and Plato's Republic. Yes, they were not our ideas to start with, but without us to start using them; Canada would still be subjects of a King. Any thanks to our Founding Fathers? Didn't think so.
Third: What has Canada done for the world? Is it the duty of America to help everyone else so they can spit on us for "interfering"? Should our military have showed up at Rwanda? Or would we have been hated throughout Africa for it? We are cursed if we do, cursed if we don't. If Canada showed up, people would have said: Why wasn't America there first? I have no doubt that Canada has offered many great things to the world, but it is wrong to ignore what good America does.
Fact of the matter is: your points are plain anti-nationalist. Your hatred towards Americans is just the same as any racist view. Consider that many Americans were Canadians to begin with, and for that matter European, African, Asian, etc. Consider that you laughed at the deaths of over a thousand people simply because they were American.
kongurous
09-30-2005, 9:12 PM
Meh...I live in Canada. The only time I would donate money to the red cross is if I was hit by a hurricane. A whole city devastated....WHOA!! It's about time the U.S.A. got a kick in the ass. I mean a whole city!!! When I heard the news on BBC the first thing that came to mind was the word AWESOME. And how awesome I really am. Sort of a personal thing so I am off at a tear...*wah*
If I've ever seen a tasteless post, this is it.
theotherdraxen
09-30-2005, 9:30 PM
So, after government agencies have gone into some of the areas that were claimed to but "utterly devastated", they've apparently learned an important lesson.
N.O. reporters were claiming that there were "upwards of 10,000 dead", and they've found around a grand total 1,000 dead from the entirety of MS, AL, and LA. They also claimed that there were "hundreds dead" in the N.O. Convention Center, and there were 4; only one of which was determined to be a product of malintent. The "mass rapings" that were also being reported have gone vastly underreported, if they ever existed. Gang activity, gunmen, and violence that ran supposedly rampant also left no evidence of themselves behind.
All in all, it would appear that the media has made a business of reporting sensationalist hearsay as fact rather than investing any time in actual journalism. So if you were, say, some foreigner off on a different continent talking about the "tragedies of Hurricane Katrina", you would have been simply repeating what multiple, multiple news sources are now retracting or trying to blame on the people that they quoted.
It's as though some divine force wants to own the hell out of your baseless criticisms that are based solely on partisanship and non-factual sensationalism.
Slow down, GenocideAlive. People are upset all over this debate with what you are saying. Not that you are entirely at fault for it, but you’re not the only one with applicable opinions to this event. This entire event, I believe, was screwed up on every level. Every government level failed at their job, from local to federal, and Bush has taken responsibility for the failures. The media failed also, reporting falsehoods and expanding truth into propaganda wherever they could. Some of the people themselves refused to leave home even when ordered to (while many others were trapped), and in that sense, they failed on their own behalf of the evacuation. I understand that you were there, and it was harder than perhaps can be said reasonably, but you need to remember that those who weren’t can still offer profound points on the subject. Remember: we are still entitled to the truth and our views of it. Since you know what happened, please do your best to inform factually, keeping your opinions separated from the much needed truth. Not to offend, but your last line does prove in itself your own partisanship and sensationalism.
Let us try to keep the divide between conservative and liberal down. Keep in mind that what allowed the Roman Republic to become the Roman Empire was civil strife. If the hate between the two philosophies continues with the amplification of things like 9/11 and Katrina, how long is it before the Civil War II breaks out? Neither 9/11, Katrina, or Rita were caused by any administration. They were freak accidents that we had poor planning for. This is not a time to point fingers, it is a time to learn from our mistakes and be ready next time. That is all anyone can ask or be expected to do.
LambdaTeam-Galileo
10-03-2005, 8:26 PM
Don't forget...If you have no money (like me) you can donate time by volunteering
Kharne’s post is the most disgusting thing I have ever read from out brothers up north in Canada, (I live in Hawaii), and it is totally sick. Some one needs to give you a kick in the butt... hard too. These are people we're talking about! For Gdd sakes and all that is humanity, have some compassion. Someday a disaster will hit Canada, and they'll call for help, and then the US will look back at what was said here and then turn up their nose on ya.
Kharne, I'm a US Marine, I love my country, so don't go knocking it... ever.
Semper Fi! Carry on!
SNOT
Meh...I live in Canada. The only time I would donate money to the red cross is if I was hit by a hurricane. A whole city devastated....WHOA!! It's about time the U.S.A. got a kick in the ass. I mean a whole city!!! When I heard the news on BBC the first thing that came to mind was the word AWESOME. And how awesome I really am. Sort of a personal thing so I am off at a tear...*wah*
How did this get slip by my ballony metter? Funny thing , though, then I assume that you won't expect us to donate to the Red Cross if a natural disaster or any other similars hit Canada as well, right? *Pokes* Get off the high horse and try to be a tad more humanitarian, at least. *Glares at Kharne*
Actually, I'm stunned that Genocide' letted that sizzle by without a harsh comment or two (perhaps because he/she is a Canadian and not a European). :P
So, after government agencies have gone into some of the areas that were claimed to but "utterly devastated", they've apparently learned an important lesson.
N.O. reporters were claiming that there were "upwards of 10,000 dead", and they've found around a grand total 1,000 dead from the entirety of MS, AL, and LA. They also claimed that there were "hundreds dead" in the N.O. Convention Center, and there were 4; only one of which was determined to be a product of malintent. The "mass rapings" that were also being reported have gone vastly underreported, if they ever existed. Gang activity, gunmen, and violence that ran supposedly rampant also left no evidence of themselves behind.
All in all, it would appear that the media has made a business of reporting sensationalist hearsay as fact rather than investing any time in actual journalism. So if you were, say, some foreigner off on a different continent talking about the "tragedies of Hurricane Katrina", you would have been simply repeating what multiple, multiple news sources are now retracting or trying to blame on the people that they quoted.
It's as though some divine force wants to own the hell out of your baseless criticisms that are based solely on partisanship and non-factual sensationalism.
Punch line, the resources to minimize that catastrophe were available. Only you are still clinging to the 'fact' that the managed assistance was 'good' enough.
*Sighs and meh's* I'll leave my "baseless criticism" be when you get me an unbiased source. Perhaps succesfully defrosting a Neandertall? :rolleyes:
There ya go spewing things into my mouth. I never stated numbers of victims or general succeded misshaps, such raping and such (in the LA scenario, for one). It's funny, though, that you try to discredit my opinion through those :lame: techniques.
And actually, a RTP (Portuguese Radio Television) crew has a branched base in the U.S. I even saw one of it's reporters near N.Orleans and in Port Arthur when covering those tragedies. My main advise at this point is for ya to speak with knowledge of fact, as well. :smirk:
(Just not to mention that I look upon BBC World news also and a few others, that are relatively accurate.)
And okay, I am "some foreigner" from your perspective, you are a "damn colonial" to me, lets not get into that. So I will NOT talk about the tragedies of hurricane katrina, obviously it was not so bad and I wont donate any money to the relief effort either because I have no firsthand experience of hurricanes.
*Lol* This one actually made me laugh for a while. We 'Eurotrashers' are really somethin' to snear at, aren't we? (Or plainly not.) *Pats Singo's back too and smiles*
I also tend to agree with TheOtherDraxen's PoV's at post #44 a lot, too.
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