Mortar Caster revisited...

[Prozerran]

I play human. I've loved the race ever since I first began playing. I wanted for so long to develop a strategy utilizing the brutal AoE damage from both the AM and the BM. I tried. I failed. I tried again. I failed again. I gave up.

I came back to the game not too long ago refreshed and ready to give it a go. I've come up with a pretty tight method of approach, I believe. So, let's see if you guys have any suggestions.

The Build

5 Peasants to Gold
1st Back, Alter, then Wood
6th Peasant, Lumber Mill
7th Peasant, Farm, then Wood
8th Peasant, Farm, then Militia, Scout
9th Peasant, Gold
10th Peasant, Two Guard Towers (don't upgrade until after you begin your upgrade to Keep)
Alter Done, Build a Bloodmage
11th Peasant, Arcane Vault
12th Peasant, Blacksmith
Peasants to wood from here on up to 19 Control
Upgrade ranged attack and building armor
Build farms up to 54 food
At Tier 2, train an AM w/ Blizzard
Build an Arcane Sanctum and a Workshop
Upgrade to Tier 3

I know I've thrown a lot out there for the B/O, but I like to be specific. I'll go through each Tier to clear up a few things.

Tier 1

You're defensive, so you have to think of it differently. With most strategy on Bnet, you get lots of harassment early. With a tech strategy like this one, it catches many by surprise. Your goal is not to harass. I am aware of how this appears to the more conservative player, but the mentality here is you want your opponent in your base, because that's where your army is, and that's where your experience is. Put your 9 Lumber Peasants in control group '0'. When your opponent gets to your base, militia your peasants and try to surround units, not the hero, since he can TP and leave you no Exp. You'll deal with the hero differently.

Use your BM to neutralize your opponent's hero with Siphon Mana. You can continually do it, and you'll never run out of mana to fend off the harassment. The powerful spells that heroes cast in the beginning of the game that ruin your day, you won't have to worry about them, because the hero won't have mana to cast them more than once. If your opponent instead decides not to harass due to the towers, take about 4 militia and creep a couple of green creep camps and try to get level 2 on your BM for Flamestrike. If you don't get the level, it's ok. Keep the BM busy through the tech and levelling as much as you can.

Tier 2

Begin with Mortar Team, Sorc, Mortar Team, Priest. Repeat depending on what your opponent is doing. Take your AM w/ blizzard, Mortars (4), Sorcs(2), Priests(2), and add a couple of Breakers. This brings you to exactly 50 Control, and while you're building this up, you should be power creeping orange creep camps. Clear out two expansion points, you're going to have the resources with all the creeping to explode at this point.

Worried about what you're opponent's doing now? They're building up forces and will overwhelm your army, so DO NOT engage. Get back to base (hopefully bringing your opponent in to the range of your towers and Siege and Casters and AoE). This strategy is not a traditional kind of warfare, so you'll have to be patient. Do not forget sorc adept training.

Tier 3

Train a Paladin. Choose Divine Shield, then Holy Light at Level 2. One good shot of Flamestrike and Blizzard with an invulnerable Paladin leading the front is enough to tip the scales in your favor. Two more Sorcs (4), Priests (4), and Breakers (4+) will give you what you need. Upgrade Frag Shards and Sorc Master Training. You still have room to add Siege Engines or Flying Machines if you need them to counter.

Troubleshooting the Strategy and Various Tips

In Tier 1, be sure to take advantage of those item shops for your BM. Boots of Speed, Invuln potions, etc... good at Tier 2 when you're waiting on the AM, Mortar Team, and Sorc to pop out and fend off that attack. Similarly, at Tier 3, Orb of Fire and Staff of Sanctuary are great, useful items, ones you can use on those Breakers in the red.

Use polymorph. Many players just try to take the army and attack click. It's not going to work, and you'll lose. If your opponent has those couple of air units as a last minute counter, it never hurts to be able to polymorph them at the beginning of battle.

I like to fill out the rest of my supply with Flying Machines for tactical reasons. Misdirection is a great weapon in higher levels of gameplay. Forcing an opponent to choose an expansion or their main base? Watch the pros. They do the same.

The Paladin is particularly difficult to use this late and keep alive. Load him with some Invuln potions to prolong the Divine Shield. Let him level up a few levels, and you won't even need to worry about his health. He'll be level 3 at that point and healing Breakers and Heroes.

Hero Points

Bloodmage
Siphon, Flamestrike, Flamestrike, Banish, Flamestrike, Phoenix, Banish, Banish, Siphon, Siphon

My thoughts on this are based on need. I like to have all three abilities at my disposal, especially considering the BM can take mana. A good tactic with the BM is to Banish, Siphon, Banish, Siphon until no mana is left. You've virtually cast Banish for free with Brilliance Aura backing you up. Then Banish and Dual AoE.

Archmage
Blizzard, Aura, Blizzard, Aura, Blizzard, MT, Aura, WE, WE, WE

This is pretty self explanatory.

Paladin
Shield, Light, Shield, Light, Shield, Resurrection, Light, Aura, Aura, Aura

The Pally is better as a tank when he first comes out rather than a healer. Shield works better with the AoE, and there are better methods of healing the BM and AM by the time the Pally comes out.

So, I think that's just about it, my project. I'm testing it and hoping I can provide replays to demonstrate building placement (very important) and some of these tactics. Give it a try, or at least a reply. Thanks.

[GenocideAlive]

This may come across harsh, but your strat idea doesn't fly. You're going to have to harass if you want to successfully tech. There isn't really any way around it. Rarely does anyone try to pressure a turtled opponent with units, they'd instead try to expand or tower you up.

Towering you could work to your advantage if you got a workshop out fast enough, but anything else will lead to you getting violated. Mass air, mass ground, mass casters, all of it will hose you.

A better plan would go something like:

1. No-rax tech with towers.
2. Get AM w/Blizzard, and Blizz harass peons/acos/peasants/wisps. Once sorcs make the scene, use invisibility spell to enhance hero placement for AoE harass.
3. Build a Blacksmith.
4. Arrive at tier 2, make a sanctum and a workshop + one extra, according to which race you're fighting:
vs. Orc get an extra Sanctum for caster cheese.
vs. NE get an extra Workshop for mortar abuse.
vs. UD get extra Workshop for mortar/flying machine abuse.
vs. HU, scout him and decide.
5. Pump mass caster or mass mortar depending on the 2-building resource.
6. Plant your ass outside of their base, get a first set of towers up and then let fly with the mortars.

Of course, this is a great response if you see them teching right behind you. It really won't do you much good to hard-tech as HU if your opponent is solo creeping, well-defended, and hard-teching right along with you. You need your harass to help stunt their growth and slow their levels. If they're creeping great, you need options.

Anyway, let me know if you want more specific help or something.

[Ender]

It is all theorycrafting at this point, so I'd say try it. I believe you should get the Archmage first though, because you want him higher levels so you can get a decent brilliance.

[Prozerran]

Yeah, I've done the AM w/ Blizzard harass. The problem w/ Blizzard is the channeling of the spell at later levels. Leveling the BM also gets you to the awesome Phoenix ultimate, which I prefer over Mass TP. I'm not too big on Sorc Invis, but I can see where someone would invis a unit, send them in to the back of an opponent's base, then MT.

There's also the levelling of the BM. Like I mentioned already, if you're not getting any action at your base, creep. Once he has an offensive spell like Flamestrike, he can run into an opponent's base and flame/siphon, keep his opponent's hero at bay and harass all at once. So, there are many ways to do this No Rax Tech.

If you prefer the AM w/ Blizz, I say go for it. I used it, but I ended up getting owned by the harassment about halfway through tech because Brilliance Aura doesn't really do anything for you at Tier 1. I can level a BM pretty quickly, so he ends up having two useful spells as a solo hero. My logic with a level 2 BM is the Flamestrike harass comes right around the time my opponent is in the middle of tech. Just because I don't harass right away doesn't mean I don't harass at all. Maybe that was the implication in the original post, but do harass once you have Flamestrike. Sorry.

As for the double-up on the Sanctum or the Workshop, I agree completely, and I actually double up on one or the other as well depending on race, but I don't mass. Massing makes you vulnerable to unit countering, so I try to stay as balanced with my forces as possible.

Good comments. Thanks!

[GenocideAlive]

Two reasons that I recommend AM + Blizz for harass.

1. He moves much faster than the Bloodmage.
2. Blizzard can be cast way, way more times than Flamestrike.

Casting Flamestrike may do more damage at higher levels and all that, but at L1 you can't harass worth a crap because he can only cast it twice. Picking Mana Siphon as your first skill is only going to put you further behind, as it's total shit for anything other than fighting off a harass. I'm not trying to be hyper-critical, but it's not working and it seems pretty obvious why.

Creeping the Bloodmage to L2 on any map other than Lost Temple is going to be a bit of a job, and your opponent is going to be doing the same. Where you COULD be using that time to harass him, damage his creeping, damage his resource-harvesters, and possibly his tech, you're allowing him time to put together his base and defenses. It's a lot harder to harass an L2 hero with some units than it is to harass an L1 hero with little/no units. Sometimes the best harassment to be had is in the first minute after your hero is out.

Get an Archmage, get blizzard, get an Arcane Vault, and get a staff of TP. Harass the crap out of him and Staff of TP back when you're out of mana or get stuck. Buy clarities and keep at it. If he has his hero and units camping his base, great; that's what you want. Otherwise, keep Blizzing that peon line. If he sticks a tower over there, go by his lumber workers. Blizz those. It is very, VERY expensive for Orc to heal workers, it's equally difficult for HU to shield their workers from AoE damage, dead acos can force a canceled tech or severe loss of resources, and it can cripple an NE if you force him to use up his wells to heal his wisps..

[Prozerran]

Two reasons that I recommend AM + Blizz for harass.

1. He moves much faster than the Bloodmage.
2. Blizzard can be cast way, way more times than Flamestrike.

Casting Flamestrike may do more damage at higher levels and all that, but at L1 you can't harass worth a crap because he can only cast it twice. Picking Mana Siphon as your first skill is only going to put you further behind, as it's total shit for anything other than fighting off a harass. I'm not trying to be hyper-critical, but it's not working and it seems pretty obvious why.

Creeping the Bloodmage to L2 on any map other than Lost Temple is going to be a bit of a job, and your opponent is going to be doing the same. Where you COULD be using that time to harass him, damage his creeping, damage his resource-harvesters, and possibly his tech, you're allowing him time to put together his base and defenses. It's a lot harder to harass an L2 hero with some units than it is to harass an L1 hero with little/no units. Sometimes the best harassment to be had is in the first minute after your hero is out.

Get an Archmage, get blizzard, get an Arcane Vault, and get a staff of TP. Harass the crap out of him and Staff of TP back when you're out of mana or get stuck. Buy clarities and keep at it. If he has his hero and units camping his base, great; that's what you want. Otherwise, keep Blizzing that peon line. If he sticks a tower over there, go by his lumber workers. Blizz those. It is very, VERY expensive for Orc to heal workers, it's equally difficult for HU to shield their workers from AoE damage, dead acos can force a canceled tech or severe loss of resources, and it can cripple an NE if you force him to use up his wells to heal his wisps..

When you say Siphon isn't working, are you speaking in terms of tourney gameplay or just from your experience? I guess my point was more that you could always cast Siphon defensively, whereas you have to channel Blizzard, and after the first 3 minutes of the game, you won't get it all the way off without having to TP out of a surround. Flamestrike is much more damage in my opinion simply because it doesn't require channeling, but there's no point in getting it as a first skill because you'll only cast it twice before running out of mana.

Another thing, doesn't the AM Blizz harass scream tech right away? If the opponent doesn't get harassed and has to rely on scouting to figure out what it is you're doing, doesn't that give you a bit more of an advantage, however minimal it may be? I wonder if not harassing is more confusing to an opponent than Blizz harassment at this point since everyone expects it. I would think if you have an opponent that doesn't scout well, it would be more of an advantage for your opponent to not know what it is you're doing until your tech is already begun.

[GenocideAlive]

When you say Siphon isn't working, are you speaking in terms of tourney gameplay or just from your experience?
I guess my point was more that you could always cast Siphon defensively, whereas you have to channel Blizzard, and after the first 3 minutes of the game, you won't get it all the way off without having to TP out of a surround.

I'm not sure if you're joking. You do know that you have to channel Mana Siphon, right? So anything you say that applies to Blizzard applies to Mana Siphon, except Mana Siphon isn't going to kill anything. When a hero shows up you should be running for your life anyway, right? Then what? Bloodmage is slower than AM, so he's going to take much more damage and be more vulnerable to surrounds.
Flamestrike is much more damage in my opinion simply because it doesn't require channeling, but there's no point in getting it as a first skill because you'll only cast it twice before running out of mana.
Flamestrike is less damage; you can only cast it twice. If they sit in burrows as soon as you cast it, then again when you recast it, the only thing you've damaged is burrows and the only thing you have left to deal damage with is the Bloodmage's attack. He can pretty much ignore you at that point. If the enemy hero shows up and you start using Mana Siphon, I assure you you're FAR more vulnerable than an AM who uses Blizz and runs when he sees a hero. Either way, get a staff of TP on the AM. It doubles the effectiveness of your harass.

Flamestrike also requires some channeling, but not all of the channeling that Blizzard requires. If an MK bolts you right as you start to cast the spell, your mana will be gone and you'll get nothing in return. The window for interrupting is just much smaller.

Another thing, doesn't the AM Blizz harass scream tech right away? If the opponent doesn't get harassed and has to rely on scouting to figure out what it is you're doing, doesn't that give you a bit more of an advantage, however minimal it may be?
AM Blizz harass is somewhat rare because it can be hard to pull off (still way easier than BM), but it's not something you can ignore. I'd rather have a definite advantage for all of tier 1 to tier 2 as opposed to some sort of maybeish advantage for a minute. Sacrificing good harass for mediocre harass in exchange for possibly nothing isn't a sound decision.
I wonder if not harassing is more confusing to an opponent than Blizz harassment at this point since everyone expects it. I would think if you have an opponent that doesn't scout well, it would be more of an advantage for your opponent to not know what it is you're doing until your tech is already begun.
If the object of the game were to confuse your opponent, this might be something to seriously consider. But as it stands if they're not harassing you and you're not harassing them, you're at a serious disadvantage by having a lone hero and no units to creep with. It's important to get over there and get in their face while they're still building up a base. They have a tower by the 7th minute...but what do they have up until that point? There's the spot that you can cripple them.

[Prozerran]

I see your point. I was trying to come up with a way to use the BM first, and siphon seemed more useful than flamestrike since you could pretty much keep heroes like the Death Knight or the AM w/ WE from casting their spells at your door and keeping you in your base. A hero with no mana that can't stun is a good hero for the BM to siphon. Similar with the FS wolves harass, no wolves means no containment - wouldn't you say it works against many heroes?

MK, KotG, CL, TC are the only heroes. I don't see the TC or the KotG as a starting hero too often, but you can count on a 50/50 chance a Human player might go MK, and CL well, I dunno.

AM is probably better for the early harass, but I think the BM is better for the ultimate if you're hoping to get it. Next patch might see the BM getting a little more soloing action. He's getting an agility bonus of 2. I'd like to see him get more soloing action.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

I see your point. I was trying to come up with a way to use the BM first, and siphon seemed more useful than flamestrike since you could pretty much keep heroes like the Death Knight or the AM w/ WE from casting their spells at your door and keeping you in your base. A hero with no mana that can't stun is a good hero for the BM to siphon. Similar with the FS wolves harass, no wolves means no containment - wouldn't you say it works against many heroes?

MK, KotG, CL, TC are the only heroes. I don't see the TC or the KotG as a starting hero too often, but you can count on a 50/50 chance a Human player might go MK, and CL well, I dunno.

AM is probably better for the early harass, but I think the BM is better for the ultimate if you're hoping to get it. Next patch might see the BM getting a little more soloing action. He's getting an agility bonus of 2. I'd like to see him get more soloing action.

You could try MK harrass (just for a laugh!). When I played as human, a long, long time ago, I went MK and Foots harrass with Rifles next, double barracks upgrade main, get Master Priests, Knights with full armour upgrades and some Rifles to cover any air units. It worked kinda well, considering it isn't the most widely acknowledged of tactics. You go Storm Bolt/Bash and only get 1 hero so that the MK gets all the experience. Bolt a unit, surround it and kill it. Run, repeat. Get a hero if you can. I had some fun matches with that... :)

[GenocideAlive]

You could try MK harrass (just for a laugh!). You go Storm Bolt/Bash and only get 1 hero so that the MK gets all the experience. Bolt a unit, surround it and kill it. Run, repeat. Get a hero if you can. I had some fun matches with that... :)
Getting foots with your harassing hero pretty much hoses your harass. You use a lone AM because he can run at a speed of 320 and blizzard does good damage against workers. You DON'T bring footies because their speed of ~280 slows down sneaking in & fleeing and they're excellent targets for your opponent when he shows up. He can safely ignore your AM and just target footies for kills and experience. Since you're trying to KEEP him from getting experience, you're basically paying gold so he can get exp instead of him just using creeps and at least risking losing health.

If you're going to use an MK, you'd have to put Boots of Speed on him and try to use Stormbolt to creepjack. In short, this is just a bad idea.
I see your point. I was trying to come up with a way to use the BM first
I could sort of tell. :D When you said it wasn't working and you resisted a switch from the BM, I could pretty much immediately see why. Bloodmage is just a poor starting hero, sadly. AM, MK, Pally, AM/BM, AM/MK, AM/MK/Pally, and MK/Pally are pretty much your options as far as hero selection goes and some of those have mostly racial applications. This is why a lot of people complain...HU is too reliant on Bril aura / AM to work well.
and siphon seemed more useful than flamestrike since you could pretty much keep heroes like the Death Knight or the AM w/ WE from casting their spells at your door and keeping you in your base.
Very good idea in a respect. The problem is, that you're hiding in your base when you should be harassing. There are very, very few solo heroes that should threaten the HU base in any significant manner. AM, FS, DK (w/skellie rod), BM, and DH are generally the only big ones that you should pay attention to. Fortunately, an arcane tower with proper repair neuters four of those (FS, DK, DH, BM less than others). Of course, pay attention to appropriate militia usage.

In the meantime, there's pretty much nothing stopping you from totally going bonkers on his base while he's in yours. Many times when playing vs. NE, they'll have a DH running to my base when my BM is coming to theirs. They always, ALWAYS turn around. The Blademaster is far and away a superior worker killer, and they know that. Similarly, an Archmage is a far better worker harasser than any listed above; the only MU he fairs poorly against is UD with a cold tower. Otherwise, even if they pick the FS / DK and chase your hero around trying to kill it--fine, who cares? They're not creeping and they're not stopping your production.