Towers and Turtling... broken??

[Prozerran]

So, visiting another forum and getting my feet wet in WC3 again, I found an interesting post complaining about players who build outrageous numbers of towers, turtle behind their base, and tech up to tier 3. These "seasoned" players complain that there is no way to defeat a turtling opponent, because towers are too cheap and allow for opponents to mass an incredible tier 3 force and march on them. The argument continues that Siege units like Mortar teams do not counter such tactics, because by the time a player has enough siege units to destroy the towers, the turtling opponent has massed too large of a counter siege force and will still mow down any force you can create.

So, what are your thoughts? Are massed towers really broken, or are these seasoned vets just not willing to adjust their strategy to compensate for a turtling opponent? Any thought is welcome, and you can vote in the poll if you like. Please add your reasons for why or why not.

[singo]

Are they balls, a few mortar teams/other siege with a resonable force to protect them can go through those towers no problem, and remember, each coin spent on a tower is a coin not spent on a real army.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Are they balls, a few mortar teams/other siege with a resonable force to protect them can go through those towers no problem, and remember, each coin spent on a tower is a coin not spent on a real army.

My thoughts exactly. Siege > Towers, and there's nothing your opponent can do about it. As for the 'huge Tier 3 force' why don't you get one as well? Your opponent will have wasted so much money on towers that their development will be stunted a bit. Alternatively with Night-Elves, get mass Chimaeras with Corrosive Breath. The range of Breath (850) is longer than all towers in the game, so you can just come in from the side and pawn them! There is one time I have ever been beaten through this tactic, and that was when someone got an Acolyte round the side of my forces and built a huge base next to a different gold mine, pumping Tier 3 units and kicking the balls outta my army.

But it's easy to beat!

[Yoda]

The only real advantage someone can have, as far as I know, from overmassing towers is knowing that someone is attacking them before all their main buildings are destroyed, or for additional forces during attack. For the other part, they fall easily from seige.

[Demon_Child]

I loved demolishing a person who turtles in their base because I already know as to what they won't be doing and that is leveling up their hero and making an army for a while. During this time I'll tech to tier 2 (or tier 3 depending on the race who is turtling) level my hero up to lvl 3, add in some siege units, hire a Goblin Zepplin, (if the map has a Goblin Lab) and procede to wreak havoc.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

I loved demolishing a person who turtles in their base because I already know as to what they won't be doing and that is leveling up their hero and making an army for a while. During this time I'll tech to tier 2 (or tier 3 depending on the race who is turtling) level my hero up to lvl 3, add in some siege units, hire a Goblin Zepplin, (if the map has a Goblin Lab) and procede to wreak havoc.

Hehe, that's another thing. Towerers rarely protect the back of their base. I was playing a (2v2 team) game on Copper Canyon once, and my opponent towered his base because he'd lost. My ally had disconnected and I was controlling both armies, so I sat and waited for a while. Eventually, his peons cut down all the trees covering the back of his base and I just walked in. It was really funny, trust me.

And the good ol' zeppelin trick. I never get tired of it. It's wonderful for harrassing even if your opponent doesn't have mass towers - into the base, destroy the gold mine (if you're playing UD or NE) then zeppelin out! How many times I have used that...

[cole]

Towers do need nerf, problem is aoe>siege heros>siege. Siege is incredibly vul due to its slow movement speed. Best way to deal with a tower masser is expo while luring him out with siege and offensive towering him. The tactic is beaten fairly easily in most cases but in tourny games its very annoying to play. It makes games way longer than they should be.

[Lordshadowbane]

There are two forms of towering.

Towers are sometimes necesarry, ie. UD towering to protect NE early rush/harrass til gargs arrive and Orc getting fast air.

The other time is just stupid like when the person already know he/she has lost.

But towers need nerf. Towers are rather cheaper than units. And siege do suck vs aoe. And when an enemy attacks the siege to get the army drawed into the towers than thats a pain. And HU massing towered expos+siege engines is hard to beat. Mass tower+mass expo= hard.

I remember this HU towering to get to invisi mortars and I was NE. I got MG's and used warclubed my way through the trees and into the back of his base and gg'd him from there.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Towers do need nerf, problem is aoe>siege heros>siege. Siege is incredibly vul due to its slow movement speed. Best way to deal with a tower masser is expo while luring him out with siege and offensive towering him. The tactic is beaten fairly easily in most cases but in tourny games its very annoying to play. It makes games way longer than they should be.

You could hero rush the guy. That might give you an indication he's going mass towers and be able to stunt and/or stop his development. I did the same thing with a guy who was going fast exe, I rushed him with a Tinker, followed his Militia then killed a couple with Pocket Factory and he couldn't exe! :) Good old days.

[Demon_Child]

Towers do need nerf, problem is aoe>siege heros>siege. Siege is incredibly vul due to its slow movement speed. Best way to deal with a tower masser is expo while luring him out with siege and offensive towering him. The tactic is beaten fairly easily in most cases but in tourny games its very annoying to play. It makes games way longer than they should be.

I think the real problem is that there are some towers that don't have a hard counter to them (since their armor class is "Heavy" rather than "Fortified") until tier 3 (where heavy air comes into play) for 3 out of the 4 races. Perhaps a fix to this would be changing the armor class back to Fortified and then add on an additional 5 seconds for build time along with a reduction of armor and/or hit points.

[Yoda]

I think the real problem is that there are some towers that don't have a hard counter to them (since their armor class is "Heavy" rather than "Fortified") until tier 3 (where heavy air comes into play) for 3 out of the 4 races. Perhaps a fix to this would be changing the armor class back to Fortified and then add on an additional 5 seconds for build time along with a reduction of armor and/or hit points.

Or you could make all towers cost 1 food, except for NE, because they already do (the wisp is consumed).

[singo]

Yeah, they need to change towers back to fortified like it was in RoC.

Because "fortifications" that are not fortified is just wrong.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

There are two forms of towering.

Towers are sometimes necesarry, ie. UD towering to protect NE early rush/harrass til gargs arrive and Orc getting fast air.

The other time is just stupid like when the person already know he/she has lost.

But towers need nerf. Towers are rather cheaper than units. And siege do suck vs aoe. And when an enemy attacks the siege to get the army drawed into the towers than thats a pain. And HU massing towered expos+siege engines is hard to beat. Mass tower+mass expo= hard.

I remember this HU towering to get to invisi mortars and I was NE. I got MG's and used warclubed my way through the trees and into the back of his base and gg'd him from there.

Ever heard of an option called 'Hold Position'? :)

If you have ranged units and/or heroes, (ranged attack spells even better) you can nuke any army that comes out to attack you... one, by one...

Like the MG story by the way!

Or you could make all towers cost 1 food, except for NE, because they already do (the wisp is consumed).

No, towers cost no food for Night-Elf. When the wisp is consumed, it takes one food away from your food count, so it's just like building a building.

[GenocideAlive]

I think the real problem is that there are some towers that don't have a hard counter to them (since their armor class is "Heavy" rather than "Fortified") until tier 3 (where heavy air comes into play) for 3 out of the 4 races.
Wait...first there's no problem because supposedly "Siege > Towers", but now you claim that there "might" be a problem that requires patching? Which way did you vote?

I'm particularly confused by your "3 of 4" comment, as nothing about towers includes "3 of 4" in WCIII. Orc and HU towers have heavy armor, NE and UD towers have fortified armor. No Orc in his right mind would spend a minute and 250W to upgrade his towers vs. a bunch of siege, because all that would do is add another 50% damage on.

And a hero rush against militia / burrows is a freaking joke. A basic AM + WE or FS + wolves combo can pretty much quash anything you try to get cute with short of Mana Burn. All you'd do there is slow down your creeping for nothing. Any retard who's done the tower build more than once can build a base with one entrance. Your hero comes in, he gets trapped. He doesn't come in, he hits on an L1 masonry farm while a peon repairs it. Or he can try to beat on a burrow with 2-3 burrows + 2 wolves + hero firing on him, but somehow I don't see you coming out ahead.

To be honest, most of you speaking sounds like you've never played against someone who knows a decent build and setup for a tower camp. The problem is that you'll never tech as fast as him (because you built a rax + had to scout him teching) and unless it's on a 2P map, you don't have much of a chance of pressuring him enough to bother him because of the walk. The problem is that most tower massers thumbs-down 2P maps.

And Demon_Child, for someone that's supposedly looking to put the "unity" back in "community", you've got an awful ugly and disrespectful .sig. It certainly doesn't make someone think you're out to improve something.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Wait...first there's no problem because supposedly "Siege > Towers", but now you claim that there "might" be a problem that requires patching? Which way did you vote?

I'm particularly confused by your "3 of 4" comment, as nothing about towers includes "3 of 4" in WCIII. Orc and HU towers have heavy armor, NE and UD towers have fortified armor. No Orc in his right mind would spend a minute and 250W to upgrade his towers vs. a bunch of siege, because all that would do is add another 50% damage on.

And a hero rush against militia / burrows is a freaking joke. A basic AM + WE or FS + wolves combo can pretty much quash anything you try to get cute with short of Mana Burn. All you'd do there is slow down your creeping for nothing. Any retard who's done the tower build more than once can build a base with one entrance. Your hero comes in, he gets trapped. He doesn't come in, he hits on an L1 masonry farm while a peon repairs it. Or he can try to beat on a burrow with 2-3 burrows + 2 wolves + hero firing on him, but somehow I don't see you coming out ahead.

To be honest, most of you speaking sounds like you've never played against someone who knows a decent build and setup for a tower camp. The problem is that you'll never tech as fast as him (because you built a rax + had to scout him teching) and unless it's on a 2P map, you don't have much of a chance of pressuring him enough to bother him because of the walk. The problem is that most tower massers thumbs-down 2P maps.

And Demon_Child, for someone that's supposedly looking to put the "unity" back in "community", you've got an awful ugly and disrespectful .sig. It certainly doesn't make someone think you're out to improve something.

Ooh, we have another Cole! (Insider joke.) :)

Firstly, I'm not sure that DC will take that comment nicely. I kinda like the signiature. DC's obviously trying to make WB a better place, and his signiature helps. It tells us what not to do. Simple! Maybe we should make a thread about it and see what people think! :)

Secondly, most tower-massers don't know how to do a decent build, only the hardcore towerers or gosu gamers (who would rarely do that anyway). I've had WC for over a year and don't know how to do a mass tower build (partly because I've never tried it!).

Thirdly, if you hero rush an orc player and he sticks his peons in burrows, you run. He's lost time, not gathering resources (it's the same with militia). They come out, you go back in. Bring a few units along. Keep attacking him. Stop him building any new buildings, if you can. Burrows in and out, lose progressively more resources. That's my general idea anyway. Your opponent won't bother to get many units if they're fast teching to mass air or tanks, so it's you against the (few, if you've harrassed efficiently,) towers and a hero or two.

And finally, most of the people who come to this site aren't gosu gamers or even remotely near it, they're people who come here to learn! Like me, for instance - I'm not particularly good, but I help out where I can.

Oh yeah, and none of this is meant to cause any arguments. It happened before, and I wouldn't really like it to happen again. Be nice! :)

[GenocideAlive]

Firstly, I'm not sure that DC will take that comment nicely. I kinda like the signiature. DC's obviously trying to make WB a better place, and his signiature helps. It tells us what not to do.
I'd be more concerned about what was "nice" if things like "sit your punk ass down" were nice. Otherwise, I don't understand how someone could be upset about others taking offense to rude and inflammatory remarks from a mod. They're supposed to sort of set the tone, yes? I don't know "DC" or any of his work, but neither will any of the new visitors here. I'm pretty sure that should be taken into consideration.
Secondly, most tower-massers don't know how to do a decent build, only the hardcore towerers or gosu gamers (who would rarely do that anyway). I've had WC for over a year and don't know how to do a mass tower build (partly because I've never tried it!).
Not only do you admit that you don't know what you're talking about, but you imply that no-one "good" would know either. I've played for 3+ years, and I can tell you at L40+, they're still using mass towers. The sad part is that it was used against players like Remind and several others by ToD-Shriek and the like (ppl playing for season 2 ladder finals), with varying success. But always, ALWAYS making for ~60min games that are expansion contests as opposed to RTS.
Thirdly, if you hero rush an orc player and he sticks his peons in burrows, you run. He's lost time, not gathering resources (it's the same with militia). They come out, you go back in.
Good idea! This works on L25> players and is a key concept of harass. Unfortunately, this working well relies on your opponent selecting their town hall and clicking "C" or on burrows and clicking "B". If they only have 3-4 units at a time functioning for defense (in burrows, militia'd) in combination with their hero, it's still enough to drive you back without any significant losses until towers are up. Once you're orange or so, they don't need the base defenses any more. You'll be beaten by their hero alone.
Bring a few units along. Keep attacking him. Stop him building any new buildings, if you can. Burrows in and out, lose progressively more resources.
Once the towers are up, no matter how well your stall is going, it's over. They'll completely ignore you and let 40DPSxTowNum in piercing damage drive you off. Bringing units will only delay your tech more, and invest you more in units that are useless by the time you can crack his defenses. You're better off just going to creep with those units for items and money than some kind of 1 peon kill in exchange for most of your hero's health and mana.

But again, this is their point. You spend all your tier 1 trying to be annoying but sacrifice your creeping and your faster tech to do so. They sacrifice nothing--because you're spending all your time in their base trying to fight their defenses and hero. Their hero wouldn't be gaining levels creeping anyway--it would just be trying to harass you to keep you from gaining levels.

So they get a faster tech and no units in exchange for your much slower tech and a few units. Well, tech is literally the counter to mass tier 1 units, so what do you think happens after that?

Siege is the answer, yes, but it takes tier 2 and a significant investment in time, resources, and food for units that are generally useless against anything other than static defenses. So if they pop gryphs on your tier 2 siege...what then? Or how about knights? The same thing that would happen if you stayed in tier 1 while they were at tier 2--slaughter.

[Lordshadowbane]

Redrag, siege dies a lot faster than heroes. Hold position works ONLY if you have range but still since heroes can take a good beating in range (cept vs heavy range), they can kill you siege pretty fast or at least make them back up. Best way to defeat a tower/techer is to tower his base. And creep/mass expoes.

[p0wer.0f.ice]

Wait...first there's no problem because supposedly "Siege > Towers", but now you claim that there "might" be a problem that requires patching? Which way did you vote?

I'm particularly confused by your "3 of 4" comment, as nothing about towers includes "3 of 4" in WCIII. Orc and HU towers have heavy armor, NE and UD towers have fortified armor. No Orc in his right mind would spend a minute and 250W to upgrade his towers vs. a bunch of siege, because all that would do is add another 50% damage on.

And a hero rush against militia / burrows is a freaking joke. A basic AM + WE or FS + wolves combo can pretty much quash anything you try to get cute with short of Mana Burn. All you'd do there is slow down your creeping for nothing. Any retard who's done the tower build more than once can build a base with one entrance. Your hero comes in, he gets trapped. He doesn't come in, he hits on an L1 masonry farm while a peon repairs it. Or he can try to beat on a burrow with 2-3 burrows + 2 wolves + hero firing on him, but somehow I don't see you coming out ahead.

To be honest, most of you speaking sounds like you've never played against someone who knows a decent build and setup for a tower camp. The problem is that you'll never tech as fast as him (because you built a rax + had to scout him teching) and unless it's on a 2P map, you don't have much of a chance of pressuring him enough to bother him because of the walk. The problem is that most tower massers thumbs-down 2P maps.

And Demon_Child, for someone that's supposedly looking to put the "unity" back in "community", you've got an awful ugly and disrespectful .sig. It certainly doesn't make someone think you're out to improve something.

im glad we have another person like this

[RedRagToAnOrc]

im glad we have another person like this

My thoughts exactly! :)

[Yoda]

I just beat an orc player who was massing towers with burrows behind them right in front of his base. I ended up winning by using MGs to remove all the trees on the side, and attack his base from there, bypassing the towers altogether :D

[Dayoh]

Towers

When i used to play RoC (lol i was playin it 4 days ago :)) towers played a good strategy part in RoC, not by tower rushing but by say are playin a map with a big opening in the middle and u have to go through the middle why not build like 4 towers and when the enemy comes u come over and intercept!!!

That and other reasons like having battles with like 2 towers at ur back or ur versing and army with 2 towers at their back, thats good strategy. But i dont mean build 100 towers.

In TFT towers like that is nearly impossible they have been nerfed lots, u cant even tower rush anymore lol.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Towers

When i used to play RoC (lol i was playin it 4 days ago :)) towers played a good strategy part in RoC, not by tower rushing but by say are playin a map with a big opening in the middle and u have to go through the middle why not build like 4 towers and when the enemy comes u come over and intercept!!!

That and other reasons like having battles with like 2 towers at ur back or ur versing and army with 2 towers at their back, thats good strategy. But i dont mean build 100 towers.

In TFT towers like that is nearly impossible they have been nerfed lots, u cant even tower rush anymore lol.

You can tower rush, you just have to hope that your opponent's army either never exits their base on a one entrance map (so pretty stupid) or only exits one side of their base on a 2 entrance map, (which is risky, but hardly ever happens). I played a guy once on Echo Isles who led me out of one side of my base continuously, harrassing me with his hero and a few units... then HIT me with the towers. I saw them lumbering into my base and realised the importance of scouting. Ever since, I've scouted more...

Against a good player, yes, it is impossible to offensive tower them, but against an average or bad player, if you can distract them well enough, then it's easy. Just for fun, I offensive towered an orc player (I was orc) while his Blademaster was harrassing my base. He never realised, came back on low health and the towers finished him off. It was really funny.

[Demon_Child]

Wait...first there's no problem because supposedly "Siege > Towers", but now you claim that there "might" be a problem that requires patching? Which way did you vote?

Towers in general are just too easy to make. That is basically what I am saying. In general Towers are fairly easy to take care of. What makes them difficult is how effective they are for their price (with the exception of the AP) and not really the number of towers the player has up. The towers were meant to provide as a temporary means of defense. They never were meant to be massed without having some kind of drawback for having to rely on them.

I'm particularly confused by your "3 of 4" comment, as nothing about towers includes "3 of 4" in WCIII. Orc and HU towers have heavy armor, NE and UD towers have fortified armor. No Orc in his right mind would spend a minute and 250W to upgrade his towers vs. a bunch of siege, because all that would do is add another 50% damage on.

With the 3 out of 4 races, I am stating that HU, NE, and UD (the 3 out of 4 races) have tier 3 heavy air units that deal 200% damage to Heavy armored units and buildings. Though would you rather have a Chim hit your base with his Magic/Msplash regular attack that deals 200% damage to your Burrows and Watch Towers or would you want his siege (Corosive Breath) attack that deals 150% damage to your Burrows and Watch Towers? This should not be a difficult question for you to answer.

And a hero rush against militia / burrows is a freaking joke. A basic AM + WE or FS + wolves combo can pretty much quash anything you try to get cute with short of Mana Burn. All you'd do there is slow down your creeping for nothing. Any retard who's done the tower build more than once can build a base with one entrance. Your hero comes in, he gets trapped. He doesn't come in, he hits on an L1 masonry farm while a peon repairs it. Or he can try to beat on a burrow with 2-3 burrows + 2 wolves + hero firing on him, but somehow I don't see you coming out ahead.

Militia isn't as good as you say it is. Honestly. They get ripped up easily by instant AoE spells like Forked Lightning, Chain Lightining, Frost Nova, etc.

To be honest, most of you speaking sounds like you've never played against someone who knows a decent build and setup for a tower camp. The problem is that you'll never tech as fast as him (because you built a rax + had to scout him teching) and unless it's on a 2P map, you don't have much of a chance of pressuring him enough to bother him because of the walk. The problem is that most tower massers thumbs-down 2P maps.

To counter this, most maps could benefit from having a Goblin Lab placed within them. A few Goblin Sappers or a Zepplin (depending on how many towers there are and where they are placed) can take care of that.

And Demon_Child, for someone that's supposedly looking to put the "unity" back in "community", you've got an awful ugly and disrespectful .sig. It certainly doesn't make someone think you're out to improve something.

I'm glad that you seem to be expressing your opinions on what I have on my profile; whether it be my signature, avatar, title, or whatever the case may be. However, that should not even be of any concern to you. Besides there are matters to which should be even more of a concern to you, than what I have in my profile.

[GenocideAlive]

Your "3 of 4" answer didn't make much sense when taking into account your initial statement. You're not really burdening yourself with clarity. :/ I'm just going to let it go, because I don't think you really remember what you were talking about.
Though would you rather have a Chim hit your base with his Magic/Msplash regular attack that deals 200% damage to your Burrows and Watch Towers or would you want his siege (Corosive Breath) attack that deals 150% damage to your Burrows and Watch Towers? This should not be a difficult question for you to answer.
This is pretty funny. I'd actually rather them do their magic attack for 200%, because at least then they have to come into the range of my towers. Their corrosive breath has a much higher range than their regular attack, so it makes my towers/burrows effectively useless. Ironic, you thought it wasn't a difficult question.
Militia isn't as good as you say it is. Honestly. They get ripped up easily by instant AoE spells like Forked Lightning, Chain Lightining, Frost Nova, etc.
These spells only "rip up" peasants after they've been leveled multiple times or they can be used repeatedly without a response from the HU player. Until then, you're going to get your ass kicked by 20 quick little low-HP footmen. Feel free to show a replay of a FS picking chain lightning as his first skill and harassing vs. a high level towers player. Somehow, I get the feeling you won't find it.

However, in order to even use these spells on peasants:
1) HU base build has to permit heroes running in and out freely. Nobody with a brain will let you do this.
2) Their hero won't be around to smack you. Considering that they're either harassing you or at their base, this seems unlikely.
3) You won't get slaughtered by mass towers, which seems likely considering they've got ones that eat mana and ones that eat life.
4) They don't use HU heal scrolls in between your spell casts. You cast CL, they use a heal scroll. By the time you get to cast it again, you won't get the kills you could have. Shop heal scrolls are the same way.
However, that should not even be of any concern to you. Besides there are matters to which should be even more of a concern to you, than what I have in my profile.
It's not your profile, it's your signature. Obviously you want it to be of concern to everybody, because you put it there exclusively to be seen by everyone. I'm not sure if this is some sort of attempt at an ominous threat, but it's pretty lame.

[cole]

Towers are actually pretty abusive. Tower rush vs ne is incredibly strong and the dual hu tower rush with dual am/footys is nearly unbeatable in some MUs.

[Yoda]

Don't towers fall pretty easily to seige units, ie MGs, demolishers, meat wagons, chims, etc? (who usually outrange them?)

[Dayoh]

These spells only "rip up" peasants after they've been leveled multiple times or they can be used repeatedly without a response from the HU player. Until then, you're going to get your ass kicked by 20 quick little low-HP footmen. Feel free to show a replay of a FS picking chain lightning as his first skill and harassing vs. a high level towers player. Somehow, I get the feeling you won't find it.


Have u forgotten about the Demon Hunter when he is in a hum base atleast 5 peasents will die to immolation!!!

A FS with Chain Lightning is my fave spell with him very effective to air, casters and weak range eg archers.

With the tower part it could work if he finds the towers early, if its a human tower rush then easy but with orc tower rush u just gotta find it quick.

And 1 more thing who here in a 3v3 game Undead tower rushed and it worked, i have :). It was so funny i bought the item that creates creep then built some ziggs right in front of the base pretty much, then i just teched to frosties.

[Yoda]

And 1 more thing who here in a 3v3 game Undead tower rushed and it worked, i have :). It was so funny i bought the item that creates creep then built some ziggs right in front of the base pretty much, then i just teched to frosties.

You have to wait for your Neocropolis to be built there first. If they haven't scouted you before all your buildings are finished, then really - :shiftyl:

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Don't towers fall pretty easily to seige units, ie MGs, demolishers, meat wagons, chims, etc? (who usually outrange them?)

Yes, Yoda. However, it's pretty difficult to tech up to these units quickly, when your opponent rush towers you right at the beginning with a hero rush. Even if you can hold out long enough (I managed to tech to Mountain Giants in one game) it's still pretty damn difficult because your opponent will just have so many flippin' towers.

And 1 more thing who here in a 3v3 game Undead tower rushed and it worked, i have :). It was so funny i bought the item that creates creep then built some ziggs right in front of the base pretty much, then i just teched to frosties.

Ahm. Undead tower rushes really, REALLY suck. I played a Level 42 once who was owning me and tried the same thing out at the front of my base. I slowly whittled down their ghouls/Dreadlord army while the ziggs were being built, (and they take so long that I had ample time) then while he had no units left, and the ziggs were finished, I destroyed them. Since he had 2 or 3 already up, that's a waste of 300/450 gold and 100/150 wood. Needless to say, he still thrashed me.

My point is, Undead tower rushes are so easy to defend against. Firstly, you can see them coming because of the blight they have to be built on. Secondly, they take ages. I don't know what the exact build times are, but they're much slower to be built than an ordinary tower, then have to be upgraded, which takes far longer than Hu towers. Finally, by this time you will have teched to siege units and in the safety of your own base can kick the living daylights with your mortars/whatever. Alternatively, kill the acolytes!

[Yoda]

Yes, Yoda. However, it's pretty difficult to tech up to these units quickly, when your opponent rush towers you right at the beginning with a hero rush. Even if you can hold out long enough (I managed to tech to Mountain Giants in one game) it's still pretty damn difficult because your opponent will just have so many flippin' towers.



Well if you're NE, you can mass ballistas in Tier 1.

Sorry that I haven't had any experience in this because no-one has ever done it against me, and I have never tried it, but don't you scout, and can notice towers being made before they're finished? :confused:

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Sorry that I haven't had any experience in this because no-one has ever done it against me, and I have never tried it, but don't you scout, and can notice towers being made before they're finished? :confused:

Well... yeah. All pro players will notice an offensive tower tactic pretty soon, but we're talking atm (I think, anyway) about towering while you're attacking, which is useful to back up your own forces.

Another interesting strat which I saw a pro player use once and have tried a couple of times (to great effect) - building Moon Wells outside your opponent's base? As well as giving you extra food, they allow you to draw your opponents back and slaughter them with the aid of healing power (halleluia!) or simply pull a unit away in battle, heal it and bring it straight back into the fray. Thoughts?

[GenocideAlive]

Have u forgotten about the Demon Hunter when he is in a hum base atleast 5 peasents will die to immolation!!!
As I've already pointed out, this only works if they have a way for you to get in that isn't blocked, and the towers aren't up. Otherwise, you're just wasting your DH's time and mana (and thus moonwells). Not to mention that most HU players tend to avoid the DH instead of attacking him with militia.

[mirthrandir63]

For those who don't know, this discussion has come about largely because of this:

http://wc3.warcraftstrategy.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=54568&whichpage=2

Only starts dealing with towers being broken about halfway down the page but anyway I'm very curious to see how people respond to this, instead of recapping their experiences in a 3v3 game as if that honestly means anything.

Originally posted by mirthrandir64
[br]Originally posted by Prozerran
Towering is risky, and I will concede I don't spam towers myself. What happened to Siege when you saw all these towers? You start harassing and see four or five towers upgrading. You don't focus your unit production on Siege, your opponent overpowers you with a large Tier 3 army, and you cry foul. Bull****. Cry me a river.

The reason why siege doesn't counter towers is two fold:

1. Heroes (especially the "cookie cutter" ones) are extremely overpowered units for their cost and outrageously overpowered when compared to regular units. Barring the odd map that always you to do something like milita/tower right off the bat, you will never play a game with the thought of not making a hero. Why? Because there is no way you could possibly justify 5 food worth of units (especially at t1) in exchange for your starting hero.

2. Siege is pretty useless vs anything besides towers, but towers can allow you to stay alive long enough vs siege by means of repair and other static base defense that ultimately your opponent will be able to engage your army with a highier tier army, that will invariably counter siege, because there really isn't much that doesn't counter siege. More importantly, everything anybody would bother to tower and tech up for WILL counter to ground based siege. Yes, pure siege vs pure towers will result in the towers being owned hardcore. Guess what, you never actually play JUST vs towers.

What does point 1 have to do with anything? Heroes already own regular units pretty ****ing hard. They own them so hard, that when leveled strongly, you hardly need other units. They're the furious the monkey boy or the shelby cobras from AoE II available on regular ladder games. Heroes themselves can make up for a food defecit. Why do you think UD players are almost pretty much given a free ride to T3 vs HU? Coil/Nova sniping is your best friend at a fight in your base. Get a tower, 2 tops and you'll be pretty much invincible to almost anykind of heavy assault your opponent could hope to muster. Now that you're in T3, you have an army at your disposal that is more than able to wipe up the rememnants of what your opponent desperatly used to try and stop you from making your perfect army.


Problem is, building a tower is ridiculously easy and cheap when compared to the alternative of taking it down. Massing them in extreme quantities will actually counter many of their counters. Destroyers techs to counter HU fast expoes can actually be made worthless by the wanton massing of 8+ towers at each of your bases which you will be more than able to afford with your dual income.

This game encourages tower massing to a fault. It's not hard to do, the rewards are pretty good too, and there is no really solid counter to it. If you mass units to take down the towers, you lose to the units your opponent will be massing behind those towers. If you mass units to counter the units you think he's making behind those towers, you lose to the fact that you can't kill the towers. Mixing and matching the two doesn't really work either. Your only options then become to expand yourself, and to secure yourself from being ***ed by harrasment, you're forced to mass towers yourself. It's really quite sad. The game gets dragged out for a long ass time, largely consisting of people standing behind towers.

"Wait a second, didn't one of the most popular RTS games ever consist largely of half hour plus games where a big portion of the game was centered around expanding and map control? " Yes, well this isn't Brood War. Wc3 has so many different factors that seperate it from BW the comparison doesn't even begin to make sense. Especially when you could counter massive turtling by always being able to out expand your opponent, and by mixing and matching your army in such a fashion that your turtling opponent would not be able to stop you from running him over, or simply bleeding him to death. You had strong options vs tower massers in BW. You don't have that in wc3. Turtling came at a price: your opponent WILL outnumber you, and if you really over do it, he can just make a few extra tanks early on, and still be reasonably able to counter the mass mutas or w/e you decide to make. Heroes in wc3 can really help bridge the gap in food, and towers are STILL strong enough that you will be fighting against them one way or the other.

The most important thing to remember about tower laming is that it's not fun to play against. Is anyone seriously going to argue that spending an extra 20 minutes in any mass tower game simply taking down autotarget/autofire/mass dmg/cheap/sturdy units is actually enjoyable? Do any of you enjoy actually enjoy playing vs the AI? If so get off battle.net, or at least don't bother giving your opinion on anything that involves more than 1 person playing.

Long story short, if your expert disertation of why towers are balanced in warcraft is based solely on armor/dmg types and your perceived unwillingness of people to adapt, shut the **** up.

[GenocideAlive]

I'm very curious to see how people respond to this, instead of recapping their experiences in a 3v3 game as if that honestly means anything.
Actually, that's sort of a large problem this site has. Everybody is like L30 and down, and they have convinced themselves that it takes no skill to get to L40+ in solo. They'll even go as far as to insult L40s. Any remark about their level triggers a chain-reaction of excuses that feels like getting hit with a Stupid bat.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Actually, that's sort of a large problem this site has. Everybody is like L30 and down, and they have convinced themselves that it takes no skill to get to L40+ in solo. They'll even go as far as to insult L40s. Any remark about their level triggers a chain-reaction of excuses that feels like getting hit with a Stupid bat.

There are no Level 40s on this site. And I'm making no excuses for my level. And yes, everyone is Level 30 and down. That's why people come here, because it's a friendly site, where the majority of people respect each other's ideas, skill levels and help out wherever we can. I haven't seen anyone insult Level 40s' tactics or levels, only their personalities. They're voicing their opinion when they talk about your strategies, and perhaps if you were to reply to them in a calm, civilised manner then we could all get on with what we have to do. None of us have convinced ourselves it takes no skill to get to Level 40+ solo, only that it takes no skill to get to Level 40+ in Random Team, and that's right - it's also what the majority of people in Warcraft in general feel. I don't know what a Stupid bat is and I'm not about to ask. Warboards is not a site for gosus to come and chat, which is what you seem to think judging by your stinging criticism of the majority of people on this site, as you have grouped them collectively before talking about them.

Notice how I've phrased this message so that it is as friendly as possible. I have made no purposeful snide remarks, only stated facts and opinions. I'd like to hear what the administrators think about your criticisms of this website in general. Maybe if you don't like WB you should talk to them and suggest some improvements.

[GenocideAlive]

Notice how I've phrased this message so that it is as friendly as possible. I have made no purposeful snide remarks, only stated facts and opinions. I'd like to hear what the administrators think about your criticisms of this website in general. Maybe if you don't like WB you should talk to them and suggest some improvements.
Um, was this before or after you said "I knew as soon as Genocide posted his first post that this would happen. I'd love to start a thread entitled 'Cole and Genocide's Little Ranting Competition' and then stick them both in there for an hour and see who wins. It would be great, but I'm content watching them annoy each other here."?

For someone who makes judgements of people after one post, it seems to me you're taking a lot of time and effort to tattle-tale. I guess that's the nature of the beast. I'm not going to be writing any more personal messages to you on this thread, b/c this isn't the place for it. I probably won't be writing to you at all, because you obviously have more time to waste.

If you want to talk towers, great. But if you're going to say that SIEGE > TOWERS when I've got replays of someone who was in the Season I & II finals losing to mass towers, you really look misinformed. The more you insist on repeating it, the less "helpful" this site becomes, because you're not helping anyone by passing out misinformation. You might as well start a thread called "counter mass mortars via possession" and say that everybody should respect your opinion.

And just FYI, "just fact and opinion" covers all sorts of negative, insulting remarks. It doesn't lend you any credibility.

[Prozerran]

If you want to talk towers, great. But if you're going to say that SIEGE > TOWERS when I've got replays of someone who was in the Season I & II finals losing to mass towers, you really look misinformed. The more you insist on repeating it, the less "helpful" this site becomes, because you're not helping anyone by passing out misinformation. You might as well start a thread called "counter mass mortars via possession" and say that everybody should respect your opinion.

Post the replay here please.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Um, was this before or after you said "I knew as soon as Genocide posted his first post that this would happen. I'd love to start a thread entitled 'Cole and Genocide's Little Ranting Competition' and then stick them both in there for an hour and see who wins. It would be great, but I'm content watching them annoy each other here."?

After.

I'm not going to be writing any more personal messages to you on this thread, b/c this isn't the place for it. I probably won't be writing to you at all

Good.


If you want to talk towers, great. But if you're going to say that SIEGE > TOWERS when I've got replays of someone who was in the Season I & II finals losing to mass towers, you really look misinformed. The more you insist on repeating it, the less "helpful" this site becomes, because you're not helping anyone by passing out misinformation. You might as well start a thread called "counter mass mortars via possession" and say that everybody should respect your opinion.

Everyone's allowed their opinion. Just because you happen to be the highest Level player on this website, doesn't give you the right to say that everything is wrong.

And just FYI, "just fact and opinion" covers all sorts of negative, insulting remarks. It doesn't lend you any credibility.

What a pity. Now I'm going to suggest that we both stop getting each other all wound up. It's what happened last time with me and Cole, and DC didn't react nicely to it. So, unless you want to have a 'last word' in the matter, I think we should call this a day. Any more qualms please PM me, don't post it here - because I'm sure people are sick and tired of our argument, and we could have it in private if we needed to.

Getting back to the subject matter;

I think towers are perfectly justified, and there are a number of ways to counter them. Siege is one, you position your army in a line between the towers and your siege units and tell them to hold position, moving them forwards and backwards as necessary. Corrosive Breath has a longer range than towers, and while you're not attacking the towers with Chims, you can hide away in the trees where your opponent can't see you. You can stop your opponent getting any expansions by creeping all the gold mines and building lots of towers next to them yourself, eliminating the prospect of mass expansion for your opponent, and then siege them, killing their army one by one, with hit-and-run attack if necessary, until they can't actually build any more units. A towerer will normally leave some area of their base untowered, or mow through all the trees giving their base cover with workers, this sometimes helps a great deal. Vorpal Blades and splash damage allow you to kill any mass-worker-repair scheme. Upgrade the damage of your siege units and get 3 or 4 of them. You'll eventually have a bit under 400 in damage terms with 1 attack, something that workers are going to have difficulty matching. And all that time they're repairing, they're also taking gold and wood out of their resources and away from that magical tier 3 army of theirs. I'd like to see the replay of the gosu gamer getting owned by the mass towerer, it should make me laugh for however long it lasts for.

[mirthrandir63]

Homerunball vs Remind for the WCG Korea qualifier:
HU mass towers /w mass gyros vs NE on LT. 106 towers enough?
http://www.wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=6907

Philbot vs nc.dude
Apart from show casing how incredibly frustrating a blade master can be, towers kind really define this game.
http://www.wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=6601

Tod vs Philbot
Mass towers on echo isles ftw
http://www.wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=6966


Of course there are games where mass towers don't win, but they illustrate the point that you can't "just incorportate siege, push and win":

Nc.dude vs Boo
Boo wins, but takes him about 45 minutes, an incredible amount of towers and expoes from both people. AND if it weren't for the really high destroyer armor with level3 defense upgrades, nc.dude could still have won.
http://www.wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=5973

These are the ones that I really remembered, however if anybody is somehow convinced that these replays are just a rarity, you've got another thing coming.

[GenocideAlive]

Homerunball vs Remind for the WCG Korea qualifier:
HU mass towers /w mass gyros vs NE on LT. 106 towers enough?
http://www.wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=6907
Remind won Season I & II Solo Ladder seasons. This is the replay I was referencing earlier.

[cole]

I was level 33 solo before i quit using that acc so no, not everyone here is below level 30 solo. And now im 30-8 solo now but ill probally stop solo until the reset so i can at least get ranked in the top 100s this time.

[Kreepre]

earlier RedRagToAnOrc mentioned u could use siege units and chims with corrosive breath to get rid of towers. i dont think he mentioned that human Dragonhawks have the Cloud ability which allows them to completley disable an area of buildings(in this case towers). The undead frost wyrms also have a freezing breath ability that disables the building they are attacking.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

earlier RedRagToAnOrc mentioned u could use siege units and chims with corrosive breath to get rid of towers. i dont think he mentioned that human Dragonhawks have the Cloud ability which allows them to completley disable an area of buildings(in this case towers). The undead frost wyrms also have a freezing breath ability that disables the building they are attacking.

Nice one, I forgot about mass Cloud. You see! Blizzard hate towers too! :)

Is it a channeling spell? You might need 3 or 4 hawks, which could result in a slight detrimental effect on the rest of your army. It wouldn't be much, but hey. It could happen!

[Yami_Raziel]

yea..frost wyrms take care of towers with ease...or if there is an Goblin Laboratory,and u are human.. just take Goblin Sapers-Invisible and start destroying stuff :D

they just own any building,and they have an aoe..not big but still have it...so its pretty easy to destroy towers..if he doesnt have senetry ward or something :P

[Prozerran]

yea..frost wyrms take care of towers with ease...or if there is an Goblin Laboratory,and u are human.. just take Goblin Sapers-Invisible and start destroying stuff :D

they just own any building,and they have an aoe..not big but still have it...so its pretty easy to destroy towers..if he doesnt have senetry ward or something :P

Have you actually cast invisibility on a sapper? I don't think it works.

To recap:

Human - Dragonhawks' Cloud (channelled)
NE - Chimera's Corrosive Breath (passive)
UD - Frost Wyrm's Freezing Breath (passive)
Orc - Troll Batrider's Liquid Fire (passive)

All of these have devastating effects on towers with little to no micro involved other than focus fire.

[GenocideAlive]

Have you actually cast invisibility on a sapper? I don't think it works.

To recap:

Human - Dragonhawks' Cloud (channelled)
NE - Chimera's Corrosive Breath (passive)
UD - Frost Wyrm's Freezing Breath (passive)
Orc - Troll Batrider's Liquid Fire (passive)

All of these have devastating effects on towers with little to no micro involved other than focus fire.
Update: You can't cast Invis on a sapper. You can't put one in a zepplin. Ha ha funny, but no.

Humorously, dragonhawks, chimeras, wyrms, and batriders all have light armor. Does anybody know what this means? That means while they counter Towers, the towers also counter them. Bats screw with their rate of fire, but you're going to need 1 bat for each tower. Now let's do the math:

Light armor vs. piercing = 200%. Siege dmg vs. Heavy armor: 100%

Towers have 800HP and 11 armor, bats have 400HP and 0-6 armor.
Towers have 30DPS in piercing damage, bats 10DPS in Siege.

So Towers are 30DPS x 200% = 60DPS.
Bats are 10DPS x 100% = 10DPS.

Now lower 60DPS by 80% for Liquid Fire. 12DPS in piercing. Then Bats get 8DPS/s from Liquid Fire as well.

18DPS for Bats vs. 12DPS from Towers, if each is kept from firing until the other begins firing. In reality, the bats will be cut apart before they can come in range because the towers are doing 60DPS while they're trying to get into place. Then you have to deal with the HU heroes camping the base.

Suffice to say that the towers FF + heroes will kill off the bats before the bats kill off the towers. Wyrms are like bats, except they move 10x slower and it takes 3.5 times as many to achieve the same effect. Chims are more logical, but any number of Chims can be immediately overpowered by half their food in Dragonhawks. Moreso with Wyrms.

This is assuming that the HU player doesn't want to be cute and wipe your army then your base immediately afterward using Steam Tank's Barrage. It works just-fine-tank-you against mass air, and coincidentally, buildings too! Glorious day to be a Human, isn't it?

All of these have devastating effects on towers with little to no micro involved other than focus fire.
So funny.

[cole]

I can see that you managed to get a B in intensive math, gj,

[GenocideAlive]

I can see that you managed to get a B in intensive math, gj,
We need a "report post" button.

[Lordshadowbane]

We need a "report post" button.

No that was funny. And dont take it so seriously. This is an ONLINE ANONYMOUS forum.

[Prozerran]

Update: You can't cast Invis on a sapper. You can't put one in a zepplin. Ha ha funny, but no.

Humorously, dragonhawks, chimeras, wyrms, and batriders all have light armor. Does anybody know what this means? That means while they counter Towers, the towers also counter them. Bats screw with their rate of fire, but you're going to need 1 bat for each tower. Now let's do the math:

Light armor vs. piercing = 200%. Siege dmg vs. Heavy armor: 100%

Towers have 800HP and 11 armor, bats have 400HP and 0-6 armor.
Towers have 30DPS in piercing damage, bats 10DPS in Siege.

So Towers are 30DPS x 200% = 60DPS.
Bats are 10DPS x 100% = 10DPS.

Now lower 60DPS by 80% for Liquid Fire. 12DPS in piercing. Then Bats get 8DPS/s from Liquid Fire as well.

18DPS for Bats vs. 12DPS from Towers, if each is kept from firing until the other begins firing. In reality, the bats will be cut apart before they can come in range because the towers are doing 60DPS while they're trying to get into place. Then you have to deal with the HU heroes camping the base.

Suffice to say that the towers FF + heroes will kill off the bats before the bats kill off the towers. Wyrms are like bats, except they move 10x slower and it takes 3.5 times as many to achieve the same effect. Chims are more logical, but any number of Chims can be immediately overpowered by half their food in Dragonhawks. Moreso with Wyrms.

This is assuming that the HU player doesn't want to be cute and wipe your army then your base immediately afterward using Steam Tank's Barrage. It works just-fine-tank-you against mass air, and coincidentally, buildings too! Glorious day to be a Human, isn't it?


So funny.

It would be nice to be able to take a single unit and counter a tower, but that's just retarded. If you could, there'd be no point in building them. So, you have to make a few units. Big deal. And when that monstrous army appears to squash your attempt at breaking through the towers ... your opponent miraculously pulling the resources to build said army out of their ass ... it's all for naught as you point out. It makes for a longer, more drawn out game. It's unconventional.

And let's face it, if Human players didn't use towers, they'd get their asses handed to them. Humans received huge nerfs across the board because "rifle/caster" was imba. Footmen lose to Huntresses, Grunts, and summons. Knights are practically the weakest Tier 3 melee unit. And riflemen hit points being at the point that they are, it's not really worth the barracks.

I see no other solution for the Human player to really stay ahead in standard gameplay than to tech fast and throw up some towers, as every other race techs faster and packs more of a punch in Tier 1. Really, this has gone beyond absurd. Now you're really just crying about it being unfair when it's not. Give it a rest.

[mirthrandir63]

Do I detect a change of tune from "mass towers are easy to counter with siege" to "well HUs must tower lame because they can't win any other way"?

[Yoda]

Humorously, dragonhawks, chimeras, wyrms, and batriders all have light armor. Does anybody know what this means? That means while they counter Towers, the towers also counter them.

It doesn't really matter, if the units outrange them, in the case of Chims and Frosties, and the cannon equivs. Troll Batriders are (probably) better at harrassment then fullscale assault.

[GenocideAlive]

It doesn't really matter, if the units outrange them, in the case of Chims and Frosties, and the cannon equivs. Troll Batriders are (probably) better at harrassment then fullscale assault.
Range of big air isn't an issue as long as HUs have dragonhawks, as I pointed out. Good job taking a sentence out of context and trying to mount an otherwise flawed counterpoint with it, though.

Chimeras with Corrosive Breath do about 68 damage to towers fully upgraded. Without it, they do around 208. So you can add 40 range onto their breath and cut their attack by two thirds. Sounds like a win-win situation. Oh, and by the way...towers have 2.5 to 2.7 times the range that Frost Wyrms have; I can tell you really know what you're talking about.
It would be nice to be able to take a single unit and counter a tower, but that's just retarded.
I agree. Totally lame. Oh wait, a dragonhawk can counter up to what, 25 towers with a single spell? Yeah, retarded for everybody but HU, I guess.
I see no other solution for the Human player to really stay ahead in standard gameplay than to tech fast and throw up some towers, as every other race techs faster and packs more of a punch in Tier 1.
Frankly, you "see no other solution" because you can't play worth a damn.
Really, this has gone beyond absurd. Now you're really just crying about it being unfair when it's not. Give it a rest.
What's "absurd" is that no less than two sentences ago you were crying that HU can't win without towering the shit out of his base. Yet you claim that if I say it's imba that ONLY a HU player can drag a game out 40-60 minutes in the first 3 minutes of the game, I'm whining about a valid, balanced "strategy".

Three posts ago you were arguing that there was no problem and that siege worked fine. Two posts ago you argued that the reason everybody hates it is because it's "not cookie cutter". Well guess what, it's not even "unconventional" anymore, it's a standard HU strat that I start every game scouting for just so I can get a headstart securing mass expos. Even RedRagToAnOrc has played against it, and I seriously doubt he's gone past L25 in ELL.

Your retarded contradictory arguments are pretty much the only thing that needs "a rest". You've got one of the worst cases of Blabbermouthus Dumbassanina that I've ever seen.

[Lordshadowbane]

Have you actually cast invisibility on a sapper? I don't think it works.

To recap:

Human - Dragonhawks' Cloud (channelled)
NE - Chimera's Corrosive Breath (passive)
UD - Frost Wyrm's Freezing Breath (passive)
Orc - Troll Batrider's Liquid Fire (passive)

All of these have devastating effects on towers with little to no micro involved other than focus fire.

Thats sort of biased... Dragon hawks are tier 2. Cloud is tier 3. And the other HU techs faster. NE, again chims are tier 3. And the other HU techs faster. UD, you use frost wyrms? 385 gold/ 120 wood/7 food and w/ a very expensive production place and a high wood cost requirement to reach that. And tier 3. With a very expensive upgrade. Trolls die to towers. They cannot "focus fire" towers. One troll per tower might work. But I highly doubt it. The only counter to towers is lots of AOE that affects buildings+siege.

UD=necrowagon
HU=Mortar
NE=MG/glaive
Orc=demos

However since the HU techs really fast, it will take a while to get a significant amount of these since your making units and he's not.

[Prozerran]

I agree. Totally lame. Oh wait, a dragonhawk can counter up to what, 25 towers with a single spell? Yeah, retarded for everybody but HU, I guess.

Which is why dragonhawks have light armor, to balance out the effect. Hence, you have to make more than one, hence why I said, "It would be nice to be able to take a single unit and counter a tower, but that's just retarded." If possible, could you try and READ the posts before you respond?

Frankly, you "see no other solution" because you can't play worth a damn.

Ok, let me repeat myself...

Footmen lose to Huntresses, Grunts, and summons. Knights are practically the weakest Tier 3 melee unit. And riflemen hit points being at the point that they are, it's not really worth the barracks.

With that being said, there's no point in sitting in Tier 1 for the shitty rax units that are produced from the structure throughout the game, since they're beaten out at all three Tiers. Better to be defensive and tech faster so you can actually stand a fighting chance AND stay on par with your opponent's tech.

What's "absurd" is that no less than two sentences ago you were crying that HU can't win without towering the shit out of his base. Yet you claim that if I say it's imba that ONLY a HU player can drag a game out 40-60 minutes in the first 3 minutes of the game, I'm whining about a valid, balanced "strategy".

Three posts ago you were arguing that there was no problem and that siege worked fine. Two posts ago you argued that the reason everybody hates it is because it's "not cookie cutter". Well guess what, it's not even "unconventional" anymore, it's a standard HU strat that I start every game scouting for just so I can get a headstart securing mass expos. Even RedRagToAnOrc has played against it, and I seriously doubt he's gone past L25 in ELL.

1.) Yes, I think adding Siege will help against mass towers.
2.) Yes, I said it is an innovative strategy in contrast to a more traditional method of play.
3.) Yes, I said towers are necessary for the human player for the lack of better units from their barracks.

None of this is contradictory. Here... let's see if webster can help you understand what it is you're trying to say:

Main Entry: con·tra·dic·tion http://webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?contra31.wav=contradiction%27%29)
Pronunciation: "kän-tr&-'dik-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : act or an instance of contradicting (http://webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=contradicting)
2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict (http://webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=contradict) each other <a round square is a contradiction in terms>
3 a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary (http://webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=contrary) to one another

Statements 1, 2, and 3 don't assert both truth and falsity, and they certainly aren't contrary. The only contradiction to any of these statements is when you change my wording and leave out text in my posts supporting what I'm saying. Then, I appear to be in contradiction because you choose what to quote and what to leave out.

Your retarded contradictory arguments are pretty much the only thing that needs "a rest". You've got one of the worst cases of Blabbermouthus Dumbassanina that I've ever seen.

You are an idiot. The only thing I need "a rest" from is your stupidity.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Even RedRagToAnOrc has played against it, and I seriously doubt he's gone past L25 in ELL.

Er, excuse me! Watch the most recent replay I posted in the replay thread and say that to my face again! ;)

With that being said, there's no point in sitting in Tier 1 for the shitty rax units that are produced from the structure throughout the game, since they're beaten out at all three Tiers. Better to be defensive and tech faster so you can actually stand a fighting chance AND stay on par with your opponent's tech.

Get a fast expansion, then you can tech quickly and pump Tier 1 units for a full group (I normally get Hero + 8 Archers plus teched units). Get a second expo and you can tech faster. Get two Hunter's Halls! Oh yeah!

[Prozerran]

Get a fast expansion, then you can tech quickly and pump Tier 1 units for a full group (I normally get Hero + 8 Archers plus teched units). Get a second expo and you can tech faster. Get two Hunter's Halls! Oh yeah!

You can fast expo without the rax. It just defeats the speed of the tech. You can't afford the fast tech AND the fast expo.

[GenocideAlive]

Statements 1, 2, and 3 don't assert both truth and falsity, and they certainly aren't contrary. The only contradiction to any of these statements is when you change my wording and leave out text in my posts supporting what I'm saying. Then, I appear to be in contradiction because you choose what to quote and what to leave out.
I'd say I was amazed at the time you spent on trying to be cute, but I'm not. You either had to spend time on trying to be cute or try to spend time on your argument. It's clear with which you stand a better chance of impressing someone.
You are an idiot. The only thing I need "a rest" from is your stupidity.
You know what really defines this argument? REPLAYS. I've got two tons of them. Meanwhile, you're quoting yourself with your whiney, nasal voice and supreme mastery of WC strategies and Bloodmage with Siphon Mana as a first skill. I can show 20+ replays of L35+ people dragging games out 40+ minutes using mass towers while their opponents have nothing they can do other than try to prevent them from expanding. I'd post them if I thought fact or truth would penetrate your reinforced carapace of a skull.

If you want to claim that it's fair and balanced that only HU can do this and that they SHOULD be able to do it unopposably, I'm content. Any fool can recognize you as one of their own. Otherwise, I'm not going to continue "arguing" while you try to drag this every direction you can to distract from the reality of the situation.

[Lordshadowbane]

Mass towers IS annoying and can be HARD to stop. Mass towers drags the game ON and ON. And most siege is available at tier 2 (exception of elf which siege sucks.). And what if the opponent has siege himself? Siege counters siege while towers counter army. The problem w/ DHawks cloud is that one unit can counter 25 towers OUT of the tower's range. So the fact they have LIGHT ARMOR doesnt matter.

[Prozerran]

I'd say I was amazed at the time you spent on trying to be cute, but I'm not. You either had to spend time on trying to be cute or try to spend time on your argument. It's clear with which you stand a better chance of impressing someone.

Didn't take much time at all really. When you've got such blatantly ignorant statements with no basis to sort out, time flies. Besides, you should thank me for clarifying what should be rudimentary reading comprehension by correcting you. Some people pay good money to go to school for that. I did it for free.

To be an ass.

Because you're an ass.

You know what really defines this argument? REPLAYS. I've got two tons of them. Meanwhile, you're quoting yourself with your whiney, nasal voice and supreme mastery of WC strategies and Bloodmage with Siphon Mana as a first skill. I can show 20+ replays of L35+ people dragging games out 40+ minutes using mass towers while their opponents have nothing they can do other than try to prevent them from expanding. I'd post them if I thought fact or truth would penetrate your reinforced carapace of a skull.

Fact or Truth? Since when has your diatribe of anti-tower sentiment ever been in the same realm of "fact or truth?" It's nothing more than two people who disagree about something. If you really want to count every game and match-up that has exceeded the 40 minute mark, you're in for a world of hurt. It's not just Human match-ups.

If you want to claim that it's fair and balanced that only HU can do this and that they SHOULD be able to do it unopposably, I'm content. Any fool can recognize you as one of their own. Otherwise, I'm not going to continue "arguing" while you try to drag this every direction you can to distract from the reality of the situation.

The only claim I made in my previous post, the only assertation I made, the only statement that you can whole heartedly count on to be an accurate representation of the reality of this situation, is:

You are an idiot.

Add to that, an ass.

[GenocideAlive]

Fact or Truth? Since when has your diatribe of anti-tower sentiment ever been in the same realm of "fact or truth?" It's nothing more than two people who disagree about something. If you really want to count every game and match-up that has exceeded the 40 minute mark, you're in for a world of hurt. It's not just Human match-ups.
So far 6+ replays have been provided with L40+ players having to cope with 40-60 minute games because HU has dragged out a game with mass towers throughout tiers 1, 2, and 3. There are more; you've provided none. Nothing.
...
...
...
Still nothing. This is what I'm talking about. I have evidence for what I'm claiming as a problem in all levels of play, you're now trying to annex the entirety of 40 minute games as "evidence" for some "everybody can tower" bullshit you're pulling out of left field. Yes, everbody can tower effectively at tier 1.

Nobody has towers that are as cheap, strong, and effective as HU. Orc's towers are outdone in tier 1 with masonry upgrades. By the time you hit tier 3, HU towers are far and away superior to everything comparable in the game. Ziggs (lol) are require blight, are extremely expensive, don't function as detectors, and have rather low effectiveness. Ancient Protectors...um...barely even qualify as towers. They're expensive, consume workers, have poor rate of fire, and take up far too much space. As any Night Elf will tell you, if the game comes down to relying on APs, you're fucked. The only redeeming quality of APs is that you can move them, that's about it.

Nobody has fortified armor siege nor siege that functions as an anti-air device...except HU that has both in one unit.

Thus far, this isn't "two people disagreeing", it's one person forming an argument and another desperately scrabbling for anything to provide a facade for his lame personal attacks. Again, this is probably why you dedicate the vast majority of your posts attacking me personally rather than trying to find something a little more effective at keeping my argument at bay.

[Prozerran]

In Starcraft, there was a program that could emulate any strategy you wanted it to. You simply performed the strategy or something, and the AI would take it over building in the same way. Is this available for War3?

[mirthrandir63]

Blizz hacks is dead, so no. Never heard of such a thing for wc3 anyway.

But why would that matter?

[Prozerran]

Blizz hacks is dead, so no. Never heard of such a thing for wc3 anyway.

But why would that matter?

Just curious for testing purposes.

[GenocideAlive]

...because he wants to play against the mass towers strat. He's going to plug either mass towers or his strat into the AI then play the other side. If he succeeds, he has "proof". Not too transparent. ;)

[Prozerran]

Well, my next question would be, "is there a way to import a replay of a top player into the program and generate the strat as played by them." But yes. I'm not ranked, so I doubt I'll ever get the chance to play 4k.Tod or other high ranking players.

[cobracao]

I think that actually you would want people to build like that as a more seasoned player.. Once you determine what they are doing you can easily modify your strategy and win.

Destroying towers is a fairly easy practice and I only reserve that strategy when fighting against the computer (It tends to throw itself up against the towers)

:)

[cole]

I remeber when i played that level 50 ud ranked 1 in solo. He massed fiends so fast with a cl/dk it made my head spin.

[GenocideAlive]

Once you determine what they are doing you can easily modify your strategy and win.
Unless what they are doing has no "easy" counter. For instance, playing against an NE Beastmaster when he first came out. Not easy to beat an L3 Beastmaster and a NSW right at the very beginning of tier 2. The amount of summons they can throw out there (around 3) combined with the BM's tanking ability and broken Frost Arrows made it pretty tough. You can't save units from the incredible FF nor can you get past the BM + summons' awesome tanking ability. Archers didn't interrupt their very speedy tech at all.

You can attempt to "modify your strategy" all you want, but the simple truth is that no-one but NE has dispel until well into tier 2. You're going to have a LOT of trouble against 1000+ disposable HP with anything other than sitting in tier 1 with dual RAX trying to make units. Then when you finally drive them off using units + base defenses, they'll simply out-tech you.
Destroying towers is a fairly easy practice and I only reserve that strategy when fighting against the computer (It tends to throw itself up against the towers):)
Destroying Orc towers, yes.
Destroying UD towers, yes.
Destroying NE towers, very yes.

Destroying 3 tier 1.00 HU towers, yes.
Destroying 10 tier 2.25 HU towers with L2 masonry upgrades, very no.

Show me a non-HU unit that can "easily" destroy 10 HU towers, and I'll show you a unit that can hose that unit (and maybe more) and have other uses besides.

But hey, I've said this before. Replays. Put up or shut up.

[mirthrandir63]

...because he wants to play against the mass towers strat. He's going to plug either mass towers or his strat into the AI then play the other side. If he succeeds, he has "proof". Not too transparent. ;)
It's no fun if you don't let them say stupid things before you burn them.

:(

[cobracao]

Hey now, don't take it out on me..
But hey, I've said this before. Replays. Put up or shut up.

I had only just replied after answering the question before I realized there was already 7 pages of garbage. I apologize.

I'm a noob who would probably get whipped by any of ya'all even if I did build towers. I just have never had a problem dealing with towers.

However there could be a point made just simply by the amount of time a game is increased by a tower builder. My only experience to the faults of such defenses against a Human Player was in StarCraft, and my buddy showed me the error of my ways when he saw me building up my defensive perimeters, and pummeled me. So I've learned to alter my strategy lightly.

I would like to add another Point of View. For Right or Wrong. When I build defensive perimeters using towers, it's not the realization as to their power. It is simply the idea, I hate loosing live units. I prefer to keep my kill ratio extremely high in my favor. I feel like a better commander when I achieve 10 or 20 to 1 kill ratios. Even when I win a battle if the kill ration is 5 to 1 or lower I feel like I failed my troops. But hey, that's just me.

I guess Ill shut up here, since it appears there is no board moderation and people can just bash others as much as they want.

[Prozerran]

Hey now, don't take it out on me..

I guess Ill shut up here, since it appears there is no board moderation and people can just bash others as much as they want.

Well said. It's apparent that a topic cannot simply be discussed on this forum with those who feel it necessary to berate and otherwise insult the opinions of others who post in this forum.

If you want to actually be a part of the discussion, it becomes very difficult not to fall to that level. Unfortunate.

[mirthrandir63]

However there could be a point made just simply by the amount of time a game is increased by a tower builder. My only experience to the faults of such defenses against a Human Player was in StarCraft, and my buddy showed me the error of my ways when he saw me building up my defensive perimeters, and pummeled me. So I've learned to alter my strategy lightly.


I'm going to copy a post I made on another site a while back because I think you'll find it useful when trying to compare BW to wc3 on the tower issue.

Originally posted by mirthrandir64
[br]Originally posted by Prozerran
Towering is risky, and I will concede I don't spam towers myself. What happened to Siege when you saw all these towers? You start harassing and see four or five towers upgrading. You don't focus your unit production on Siege, your opponent overpowers you with a large Tier 3 army, and you cry foul. Bullshit. Cry me a river.

The reason why siege doesn't counter towers is two fold:

1. Heroes (especially the "cookie cutter" ones) are extremely overpowered units for their cost and outrageously overpowered when compared to regular units. Barring the odd map that always you to do something like milita/tower right off the bat, you will never play a game with the thought of not making a hero. Why? Because there is no way you could possibly justify 5 food worth of units (especially at t1) in exchange for your starting hero.

2. Siege is pretty useless vs anything besides towers, but towers can allow you to stay alive long enough vs siege by means of repair and other static base defense that ultimately your opponent will be able to engage your army with a highier tier army, that will invariably counter siege, because there really isn't much that doesn't counter siege. More importantly, everything anybody would bother to tower and tech up for WILL counter to ground based siege. Yes, pure siege vs pure towers will result in the towers being owned hardcore. Guess what, you never actually play JUST vs towers.
What does point 1 have to do with anything? Heroes already own regular units pretty fucking hard. They own them so hard, that when leveled strongly, you hardly need other units. They're the furious the monkey boy or the shelby cobras from AoE II available on regular ladder games. Heroes themselves can make up for a food defecit. Why do you think UD players are almost pretty much given a free ride to T3 vs HU? Coil/Nova sniping is your best friend at a fight in your base. Get a tower, 2 tops and you'll be pretty much invincible to almost anykind of heavy assault your opponent could hope to muster. Now that you're in T3, you have an army at your disposal that is more than able to wipe up the rememnants of what your opponent desperatly used to try and stop you from making your perfect army.

Problem is, building a tower is ridiculously easy and cheap when compared to the alternative of taking it down. Massing them in extreme quantities will actually counter many of their counters. Destroyers techs to counter HU fast expoes can actually be made worthless by the wanton massing of 8+ towers at each of your bases which you will be more than able to afford with your dual income.

This game encourages tower massing to a fault. It's not hard to do, the rewards are pretty good too, and there is no really solid counter to it. If you mass units to take down the towers, you lose to the units your opponent will be massing behind those towers. If you mass units to counter the units you think he's making behind those towers, you lose to the fact that you can't kill the towers. Mixing and matching the two doesn't really work either. Your only options then become to expand yourself, and to secure yourself from being gayed by harrasment, you're forced to mass towers yourself. It's really quite sad. The game gets dragged out for a long ass time, largely consisting of people standing behind towers.

"Wait a second, didn't one of the most popular RTS games ever consist largely of half hour plus games where a big portion of the game was centered around expanding and map control? " Yes, well this isn't Brood War. Wc3 has so many different factors that seperate it from BW the comparison doesn't even begin to make sense. Especially when you could counter massive turtling by always being able to out expand your opponent, and by mixing and matching your army in such a fashion that your turtling opponent would not be able to stop you from running him over, or simply bleeding him to death. You had strong options vs tower massers in BW. You don't have that in wc3. Turtling came at a price: your opponent WILL outnumber you, and if you really over do it, he can just make a few extra tanks early on, and still be reasonably able to counter the mass mutas or w/e you decide to make. Heroes in wc3 can really help bridge the gap in food, and towers are STILL strong enough that you will be fighting against them one way or the other.

The most important thing to remember about tower laming is that it's not fun to play against. Is anyone seriously going to argue that spending an extra 20 minutes in any mass tower game simply taking down autotarget/autofire/mass dmg/cheap/sturdy units is actually enjoyable? Do any of you enjoy actually enjoy playing vs the AI? If so get off battle.net, or at least don't bother giving your opinion on anything that involves more than 1 person playing.
Long story short, if your expert disertation of why towers are balanced in warcraft is based solely on armor/dmg types and your perceived unwillingness of people to adapt, shut the fuck up.

[GenocideAlive]

To append mirthrandir63's remarks regarding Brood War, there's a little something that's extremely important that he doesn't mention: Supply.

Supply is one of the two primary reasons that WC and BW don't match up. If your opponent turtles in BW, he spends his money on static base defenses that can be overcome by unit-equivalent spending in minerals. In WC, those units take up food, that food takes up resources. You're basically being rewarded for using static defenses that don't consume food. You also don't have to worry about making units that will be outmoded at higher tiers of tech (ghouls). Another resource boon.

So if you stick together an army to beat towers AND an army, you're already at a disadvantage because the resources you're harvesting get cut to less than half. You're only amplifying their advantage. In Brood War, there is no advantage to mass static defenses, and there is no heroes to offer soft counters to entire unit types. In Brood War, there was no Flamestrike available at tier 1 to kill every marine that came near it.
Well said. It's apparent that a topic cannot simply be discussed on this forum with those who feel it necessary to berate and otherwise insult the opinions of others who post in this forum.

Is this a joke? Didn't you just spend the last 3 of your posts calling me names like a sixth grader? It seems to me that you're defining "that level", not "falling to that level".

It's "apparent" that the only time you can control yourself is when you don't have to defend your ridiculous bias against reason.

[mirthrandir63]

Oh yeah, and supply.

[cobracao]

Ok. Answer me this then. As I do not currently have intentions to play online because of commitments (atleast on Battle.Net (Love to play against friends)) would perhaps the following changes in my maps make a difference:
Increase the cost of towers by increasing the amount of wood necessary. This would reflect the long term cost of the Arrows/Ballistae rounds expended throughout it's life on an average. Furthemore either creating new Siege Equipment or simply upgrading the firepower of existing siege equipment.

[mirthrandir63]

I feel the solution lies more in giving some kind of food cost to towers, and making towers require some kind of user interaction to be effective. No idea how that could be done, but I'd like to hear concepts that require user interaction in order for towers to be effective.

In case anyone was thinking there's no point trying to compare how other games handled the tower issue because wc3 is pretty unique in it's damage to hp ratio. Units do much much less damage relative to their HP than they do in other games.

[GenocideAlive]

Hmm. I was thinking that it'd be interesting to have to load a peasant into a Guard Tower in order for it to fire with any appreciable speed. Sort of like burrows' 1 peon vs. 4 peons. Requiring one peasant per tower wouldn't be a prohibitive unit cost, and a system like that of a wisp on a tree would prevent people trying to protect peasants like that.

Realistically though, I say just modify it so that level 2 and 3 Masonry don't affect Guard Towers.

That, and +5G +5W for Scout/Ivory Tower +10G +10W for Guard Tower. It's certainly logical to make wood the limiting reagent of the equation.

[Prozerran]

Is this a joke? Didn't you just spend the last 3 of your posts calling me names like a sixth grader? It seems to me that you're defining "that level", not "falling to that level".

Joke? No. You're an asshole and don't belong here. That's all that needs to be said.

It's "apparent" that the only time you can control yourself is when you don't have to defend your ridiculous bias against reason.

Reason? You claim you reason your argument? Against what?! Against the players who lose to towering human opponents? You have to be joking. I may not be able to micro the way they can, but I know what I would do different if I were expecting the strategy and had their skill.

The problem is your reasoning is based off of a strategy that very few have actually implemented in higher level gameplay. You then use your own experience and ideas rather than what COULD be done against the strategy to argue that it is imba. You argue that there's nothing you can do about it. The key word in these statements - YOU. You cannot come up with a counter, so it's imba. Then you call us idiots for not seeing your point of view because you refuse to change your methods of gameplay to compensate for a strategy you couldn't stop.

It doesn't matter at higher levels of gameplay. 4K.Tod is using this more innovative strategy against a player he knows is going to play more traditionally. 9 out of 10 wins, his opponent probably didn't even consider he'd have to face the strat, and ended up losing with a lack of preparation.

[mirthrandir63]

Joke? No. You're an asshole and don't belong here. That's all that needs to be said.
Dont' belong here? You gonna make a "you people" crack now too?

[GenocideAlive]

Dont' belong here? You gonna make a "you people" crack now too?
Just ignore him and pretend he said something about towers not being imba, but rather HU is imba (underpowered).

In keeping with this dandy little device, I'm going to continue like he did say something in regards to such.

I don't really see how a race that's so damned good at creeping and early harassment has suddenly become such hardcore crap in the space of the last 2 months. I agree that Wand of LS needs to be removed from the freaking game, but I can't really comprehend how keeping people from putting 20 towers up is somehow going to massively throw the balance of the game into the opposing races' favor.

[cobracao]

Stupid question... +5G +5W for Scout/Ivory Tower +10G +10W
ummm.. what? G, W? Gold and Wood?

I like the idea of having to load dude(s) (Peons, Peasants whatever) into the Tower to make it effective... I might look into that.. Got some Ideas on making that feasible..

[Lordshadowbane]

\to argue that it is imba. You argue that there's nothing you can do about it. The key word in these statements - YOU. You cannot come up with a counter, so it's imba. Then you call us idiots for not seeing your point of view because you refuse to change your methods of gameplay to compensate for a strategy you couldn't stop.



He showed replays of GOOD people losing/elonging the game with it...

[GenocideAlive]

Well, at least Lord Shadowbane gets it.
Reason? You claim you reason your argument? blah blah blah expecting the strategy and had their skill.
Ironically, this paragraph meant to insult my argument fails miserably in the line of reason. It's just a hypothetical guesstimation of situation and circumstance running all over the place.
The problem is your reasoning is based off of a strategy that very few have actually implemented in higher level gameplay. You then use your own experience and ideas rather than what COULD be done against the strategy to argue that it is imba. You argue that there's nothing you can do about it. The key word in these statements - YOU. You cannot come up with a counter, so it's imba. Then you call us idiots for not seeing your point of view because you refuse to change your methods of gameplay to compensate for a strategy you couldn't stop.
"Using my own experience and ideas" is at the crux of everything I say or do. I thought this would be so immediately salient to anyone over the age of 10 that I didn't mention that. Sorry if you felt that was a gross omission. And I hate to break it to you, but this isn't an uncommon strategy--you probably haven't faced it because it has a very sketchy success rate against other HUs. You guys have too much in the way of stopping your own strategy with Cloud, Siege Engines, etc. Oh, and so far, calling names has been by and large your forte, not mine.

In regards to the strategy, there's nothing ANYBODY can do about it, as the REPLAYS I've provided have shown. They mass towers, you have a 40 minute game, no matter the play level, the experience level, or the capability of the players. By the time you scout it, it's too late. I've proven my point over and over. The only thing that's left is your whining with a complete lack of proof or support. You claim that the reason people fail is because of a "lack of preparation" and somesuch other made-up bullshit. Nothing. Can. Be. Done. To. Stop. It.

You may be able to pull off the win (as I and others have and have not), but it still means I'm going to have to fight for forty minutes to get 20 exp from an L9 smurf. I know a significant number of people who simply resign games against mass towers, because they'd rather play 2 15 minute games to make up the loss rather than spend 40+ minutes on a 50-50 shot of winning. There are some people that even wait until you've destroyed every last building, just to be as big of a jackoff as possible. Sort of like when you keep trying to continue this argument in spite of the fact that you really have nothing to offer to it.

[Prozerran]

Ironically, this paragraph meant to insult my argument fails miserably in the line of reason. It's just a hypothetical guesstimation of situation and circumstance running all over the place.

There's no insult to your argument mentioned. Your argument is based off of individual replays at higher level gaming where, at the time, not many people were implementing towering strategy, which is where 4k.TOD probably benefitted in the greater scheme of things. Now that it's such a big issue, I'm not surprised more Hu players are using it to their advantage since no one has tried to come up with a counter - they've just thrown their hands up in the air saying it's "imba." Like this has never happened before...

"Using my own experience and ideas" is at the crux of everything I say or do. I thought this would be so immediately salient to anyone over the age of 10 that I didn't mention that. Sorry if you felt that was a gross omission. And I hate to break it to you, but this isn't an uncommon strategy--you probably haven't faced it because it has a very sketchy success rate against other HUs. You guys have too much in the way of stopping your own strategy with Cloud, Siege Engines, etc. Oh, and so far, calling names has been by and large your forte, not mine.

I believe the concensus here is quite the opposite. No one was actually being rude here until you showed up and started posting with rude connotation. The implication that my mentality is that of a 10 year-old because I sink your position hardly exemplifies your presumed angelic presence here at this site.

Nothing. Can. Be. Done. To. Stop. It.

Really? Says you. Again, you base your argument on your own experience against the strategy you lose against 50% of the time. I'm sure you're including the opinions of like-minded individuals who equally feel the same way, but it doesn't matter. Not everyone has a problem with the strategy out in the greater realm of the WC3 community. Some of us make adjustments to our approach to the game.

[GenocideAlive]

I'm not surprised more Hu players are using it to their advantage since no one has tried to come up with a counter - they've just thrown their hands up in the air saying it's "imba." Like this has never happened before...
I'll accept this as a viable argument when you can prove it. That you're accusing the community-at-large of not looking for a counter while never having faced the strat yourself is laughable.
Really? Says you. Again, you base your argument on your own experience against the strategy you lose against 50% of the time.
Actually, as I keep stating over and over while you rave on 0and on nonsensically, I'm basing it on my experience as well as that of multiple other high-level players. Of whom, I have provided REPLAYS; you know, those things you keep avoiding because you don't have any and they basically neuter your argument?

Some believe it's abuse, some believe it's just irritating, some believe you should abuse whatever you can to win. Either way, I haven't heard "it's fair and balanced" from anyone that didn't immediately chase it with "abuse doesn't exist". If you believe abuse doesn't exist, that's fine, but don't pretend to have a capability to comment on balance with that mindset. Blizzard patches have proven over and over that fixes are needed and improve the game.
I'm sure you're including the opinions of like-minded individuals who equally feel the same way, but it doesn't matter. Not everyone has a problem with the strategy out in the greater realm of the WC3 community. Some of us make adjustments to our approach to the game.
Replays, please. Proof, please. You've gone another entire rant-of-a-post with neither proof nor replays while claiming that I have a flawed argument based on your extremely limited knowledge of the game.

If you want to make all these wild claims, that's fine; fantasy has its place. But don't try to walk into the middle of a grown up conversation concerning "iron is harder than wood" with your input of "if the wood were infused with magical energy, it'd be harder".

[cole]

Towers are broken though. The problem is heros>siege and repair>unit ff. Only thing you can do is OT and lure out with siege which doesnt always work.

[Yoda]

I've beaten mass-towers before, by taking down the trees on one side and going in that way. You could also use air-seige, in particular troll batriders with liquid fire.

But towers really are quite annoying because they can slow down things considerably. And the sometime strategy of after they've destroyed your base, you try to quickly destroy theirs in order to force a stalemate becomes a tad harder.

[GenocideAlive]

I've beaten mass-towers before, by taking down the trees on one side and going in that way. You could also use air-seige, in particular troll batriders with liquid fire.

But towers really are quite annoying because they can slow down things considerably. And the sometime strategy of after they've destroyed your base, you try to quickly destroy theirs in order to force a stalemate becomes a tad harder.
I'm not sure how you beat out mass towers with troll batriders, when their DPS is only slightly higher if you assume that they both start firing at the same time. If you add in the fact that 1-2 tanks can wipe entire control groups of bats rather effectively, it becomes a little difficult to convince others that this would work consistently. Of course, you could FF the tanks, but then the towers would cut you to shreds.

Taking out the trees to fight it certainly is feasible if they built a forward-base to accomodate the towers. If they kept the towers around their town hall, then it doesn't really matter what angle you come in from. They're going to do a fine job no matter what.

These only further illustrate my point that beating mass towers is a rather chancey scenario. You rely on your opponent's incompetence more than you rely on any "skill" or "strategy". Additionally, you're not going to be taking out trees or OT'ing with siege without a significant time-investment into the game. That's pretty much the primary complaint of the anti-tower faction. No strategy of any race should be able to instantly prolong the game by 30 minutes. Fortunately, only HU is able to do this thus far. A slight fix of Masonry will take care of the problem.

[cole]

Towers need a reduce in attack speed too. Their attack speed is kind of ridiculous...

[GenocideAlive]

25 piercing damage every .9s. This is pretty much 30DPS, easily more than any mobile unit in the game.

[cole]

Not to mention hitting them with a meele unit is near impossible with a decent/good base setup.

[Prozerran]

Replays, please. Proof, please. You've gone another entire rant-of-a-post with neither proof nor replays while claiming that I have a flawed argument based on your extremely limited knowledge of the game.

If you want to make all these wild claims, that's fine; fantasy has its place. But don't try to walk into the middle of a grown up conversation concerning "iron is harder than wood" with your input of "if the wood were infused with magical energy, it'd be harder".

http://www.replays.net/bbs/htm_data/166/0509/247988.html
Orc vs Hu

Orc uses siege to take out the Hu town hall, barracks, vault, etc... definitely had the game if he'd played it out. What was that again? Siege doesn't work against a turtling opponent?

http://wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=7066&R=2
UD vs Hu

UD uses gargs and frosties. Could have done a couple of necros and wagons, 10 food, and almost doubled the effectiveness of his attack on the production expo.

http://wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=7081&R=2
NE vs Hu

NE uses Dryads and Chims to take down the Hu tech. Hu forfeits a few minutes later.

http://www.esl-europe.net/eu/wc3l/season8/download/537006/
NE vs Hu

Bears and Hunts to Dryads w/ DH, Naga, and Panda. Nice.

The funny thing is, some of these are solutions I proposed that you disregarded (with the exception of the UD replay) and here they are being implemented.

[GenocideAlive]

Orc uses siege to take out the Hu town hall, barracks, vault, etc... definitely had the game if he'd played it out. What was that again? Siege doesn't work against a turtling opponent?
He lost, numbnuts. No, it doesn't fucking work.
UD uses gargs and frosties. Could have done a couple of necros and wagons, 10 food, and almost doubled the effectiveness of his attack on the production expo.
I'm a little confused why this game was over. Mass siege tanks would have wiped the floor with this guy, but he kept making Flying Machines and Dragonhawks vs. Gargs. He also out-expo'ed this guy, and this was pretty much a classic towers game. Insta-40 min game. You refute nothing with this replay, bud.
NE uses Dryads and Chims to take down the Hu tech. Hu forfeits a few minutes later.
Um, NE loses through loss of all buildings. The HU player is outplayed the whole game, but still wins. L7 DH + L6 Warden vs. an L3 AM + L2 MK. This pretty much classifies as what I'm complaining about.
Bears and Hunts to Dryads w/ DH, Naga, and Panda. Nice.
Um, this is a dumb fucking HU trying to fast expo with a DH and hunts standing there. 1 tower was made the whole fucking game. How is this mass towers + siege?
The funny thing is, some of these are solutions I proposed that you disregarded (with the exception of the UD replay) and here they are being implemented.
I thought "the funny thing" was that half of these replays you're providing as "proof" are replays that prove my point. Fuck, two of them are people losing to mass towers, man! The only aberrant one is the one with AM attacking a yellow creep camp while a DH stands there--that proves...nothing.

[Prozerran]

He lost, numbnuts. No, it doesn't fucking work.

Orc didn't lose. He quit. He could have won if he stayed in.

I'm a little confused why this game was over. Mass siege tanks would have wiped the floor with this guy, but he kept making Flying Machines and Dragonhawks vs. Gargs. He also out-expo'ed this guy, and this was pretty much a classic towers game. Insta-40 min game. You refute nothing with this replay, bud.

I thought I already addressed the point that the length of a game doesn't really prove the imbalance of towers. A long game could simply result from two good players outplaying one another.

Um, NE loses through loss of all buildings. The HU player is outplayed the whole game, but still wins. L7 DH + L6 Warden vs. an L3 AM + L2 MK. This pretty much classifies as what I'm complaining about.

NE won. HU quit. Watch the replay.

Um, this is a dumb fucking HU trying to fast expo with a DH and hunts standing there. 1 tower was made the whole fucking game. How is this mass towers + siege?

I counted 10 towers on this replay. Hu started punching out tanks right before he gave up.

I thought "the funny thing" was that half of these replays you're providing as "proof" are replays that prove my point. Fuck, two of them are people losing to mass towers, man! The only aberrant one is the one with AM attacking a yellow creep camp while a DH stands there--that proves...nothing.

Try watching these replays before you rebut them. They're all replays of HU Mass siege players losing to the other races, which is what you've continually argued cannot be done!!! Let me refresh you, AGAIN!

Nothing. Can. Be. Done. To. Stop. It.

Those were your words. And these replays, as you asked for, are Proof that something CAN be done to stop it.

Now, I'm not going to waste my time trying to find you more and more replays of Human players losing with MASS Towers + Siege, but I can assure you they are out there.

If this strategy was so imba, as you claim, then the tactics demonstrated in these replays would not have brought these outcomes. Arguing a player was outplayed is a moot point - that's why we call it a game - as is arguing the length of games. Arguing the loss of buildings is as relative to the loss of units considering the strategy. So, that as well is a moot point depending on your frame of reference. I could say the same thing for hero levelling. It's apples and oranges when you consider the strategy involved.

All you really have to stand on is your claim that towers are overpowered. As you can see in these replays, towers aren't keeping these players from playing the game. Whether you would agree or not would pretty much depend on how you play the game, wouldn't it?

[GenocideAlive]

I thought I already addressed the point that the length of a game doesn't really prove the imbalance of towers. A long game could simply result from two good players outplaying one another.this makes no sense, but w/e...
You already addressed it, but I pretty much balled up your argument and made you eat it. Arguing that the same effect can be gotten through different causes doesn't lend you any credibility whatsoever. You can leave a 1HP Abom standing still for 5 minutes on the Blight or you can Coil it; that doesn't mean that you should skip your DK and just use Skulls. "Two good players outplaying one another" requires two good players, and good play. Picking HU and massing towers requires neither.
Orc didn't lose. He quit. He could have won if he stayed in.
Um, bullshit? He just lost his L2 SH, his L5 BM, and his army to mass dragonhawks; the HU kept both his heroes. The Orc would have lost a lot sooner if the HU player had remembered that he had 6 hawks sitting in the back of his base when the fight started. The HU even had an expo that he teched while the Orc attacked the main. I don't know what you're claiming...that the Orc could have rebuilt his entire army and heroes? He didn't even have an expo, whereas the HU player had two mines for at least half the game. He quit because he was out of money, and he knew the HU would only expand again and again and again while he was still trying to rebuild his army.
NE won. HU quit. Watch the replay.
Um? Are we watching the same ones? This features an NE that makes three chim roosts to hit towers and gets raped by flying machines. Then wave after wave of Siege Engines finally wipe his base. He spends his very last gold trying to repair his Tree of Eternity (eating trees) that ends up getting smoked anyway. He replants to start a goldmine and tries to start an expo and just gets razed.
I counted 10 towers on this replay. Hu started punching out tanks right before he gave up.
? This one doesn't sound like the one you posted. The HU player tried to attack an orange creepcamp two minutes into the game with a DH standing there. He quit before he got to tier 2--hunts and DH just killed off the peasants and footies and the HU player gave up his fast-expo attempt.
Try watching these replays before you rebut them. They're all replays of HU Mass siege players losing to the other races, which is what you've continually argued cannot be done!!! Let me refresh you, AGAIN!
...I think you've finally just lost all your marbles. I think it's been iterated over, and over, and over that the problem isn't that it's impossible to beat--it's that:

1. 90% of people who do it have no talent.
2. They can prolong the game for 30 minutes, with no talent.
3. Only HUs can do it.
4. Only HUs have viable ways to stop it (Siege Engines, Dragonhawks)

You seem to have latched onto one very small aspect of the problem and are attempting to make out like it's the whole problem.
If this strategy was so imba, as you claim, then the tactics demonstrated in these replays would not have brought these outcomes.
What, two losses, a fast expo replay, and a mass gargs game where Siege Engines were never made? O...k...what was this proving?
Arguing a player was outplayed is a moot point - that's why we call it a game - as is arguing the length of games. Arguing the loss of buildings is as relative to the loss of units considering the strategy. So, that as well is a moot point depending on your frame of reference. I could say the same thing for hero levelling. It's apples and oranges when you consider the strategy involved.
Since when is being outplayed using a particular strat and still consistently winning a "moot point"? I thought it was a clear indicator of a balance problem; it seems to be how Blizzard has dealt with WC since RoC Beta.
All you really have to stand on is your claim that towers are overpowered. As you can see in these replays, towers aren't keeping these players from playing the game.
Actually, what I have to stand on is the replays I've provided, and the replays that you've unwittingly provided that only prove my point. In your haste to jump and down with "IN YOUR FACE GENOCIDE LOL I PWN YOU", you've walked right into what I, mirthrandir63, Stevey, and so many others have been saying the whole time. Thanks.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

You know somehow over the past month, I've learnt not to argue with Geno. Despite my stubborn-ness, I can't help but think that, considering he's Level 40, he's probably right. Maybe it's that. Maybe it's his motto underneath his name, 'Nemo Me Impune Lacesset' ('No-one provokes me with impunity', the motto of the Scottish crown and most of their regiments - are you Scottish, Geno?).

But on the same lines, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Now, I'm not much of a peacemaker, but it seems to me that this conversation has moved on somewhat from the original subject matter of 'Towers'. No mass siege, no protests, just a simple question. So basically, I'm tired of seeing people arguing about stuff that is really just a simple case of difference of opinion. There have only been a few people (you know what I mean, don't be pedantic) posting in this thread for some time now, and (once again, my opinion,) if I was an administrator I'd shut the thread down, because - let's face the music - we're getting nowhere.

Perhaps you'll see reason and forget about this argument, perhaps not. But at least calm down a bit. Please.

Thank you.

P.S. £15 says I regret posting this reply within the next 24 hours.

[GenocideAlive]

Well, I'm inclined to agree on the point that I'm not really making progress on certain individuals.

I feel I'm pretty