Greetings

[Prozerran]

Hello all,

Demon Child, I love what you've done with the place! Looks great!! For those who don't know me, I used to Mod the boards here until I got a job working me 60+ hours a week. So, I haven't been here for a while. Doesn't mean I haven't gotten my feet wet in War 3 though. I'll post a strategy I've been working on off and on to see what you guys think. Be on the look out.

[Demon_Child]

Thanks, Proz. I did what I had to since I have some knowledge on Warcraft 3. (even though I am retired from WC3 for two months now) Not to mention that Radlin basically keeps the WoW forums in check and rarely pops his head over here, but any assistance here from you (even if you aren't a staff member at the moment) will be greatly appreciated. :D

My only concern is the "Warcraft Foundry" forum, since I never was a map maker, but I can take care of that as long as someone can point my attention to the problem area/s via PM and I'll take the appropriate action when needed.

Oh, just one more thing. Call me DC, for I am not really a big fan of formalities. ;)

[Prozerran]

Thanks, DC. I dropped in on Warcraftstrategy.com to see what was going on there. Too many rude people in the forums there. I don't think I'll be visiting them anymore. Good to be here. I'll keep my eye out for anything I see that's undesireable. For anyone curious as to what I'm doing, I'm a loan officer now, so if anyone is thinking of moving to Florida and needs a home, I'm your man. Plus, it lets me spend more time at my computer to come visit you wonderful people here at Warboards.

[GenocideAlive]

I'm not sure "rude" is the correct term, but you made some very silly statements based on your limited knowledge of both WC as a player and the professional WC scene. To your credit, you remained polite, but you were very, very wrong. It gets tiring for higher leveled players to see the same erroneous comments made over and over by the same type of people that have very limited knowledge. It's like seeing someone post "2+2=7" over and over, and having to explain it again and again.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

I'm not sure "rude" is the correct term, but you made some very silly statements based on your limited knowledge of both WC as a player and the professional WC scene. To your credit, you remained polite, but you were very, very wrong. It gets tiring for higher leveled players to see the same erroneous comments made over and over by the same type of people that have very limited knowledge. It's like seeing someone post "2+2=7" over and over, and having to explain it again and again.

DC, do something. Please...

[cole]

I'm not sure "rude" is the correct term, but you made some very silly statements based on your limited knowledge of both WC as a player and the professional WC scene. To your credit, you remained polite, but you were very, very wrong. It gets tiring for higher leveled players to see the same erroneous comments made over and over by the same type of people that have very limited knowledge. It's like seeing someone post "2+2=7" over and over, and having to explain it again and again.

Prozeran does have no clue what hes talking about but i havent seen one statement from you that wasnt supid/obvious. And you say your level 40 which i doubt. Level 40 rt, maybe, but who cant get level 40 rt? And solo isnt to diffucult till level 25+ if your ell starts to get high.

Btw just checked your stats. And your level 38, not level 40. I was level 33 solo on one of my akas before i stopped using it and decayed to like 30. And you massed a hell of alot solo games, sorry to say but its true.

[Prozerran]

I believe some clarification is in order.

The question of Cookie Cutter vs Innovation was brought up in a long, long winded thread. I posted that Innovation was the way to go, as I was under the impression the thread was debating over the viability of less conservative methods of strategy for newer players to base their own gaming on. Turtling was mentioned in particular as a cheap method for players with low APM to win games, which may or may not be considered innovative. Either way, it's not a standard approach used as often as more conventional means (i.e. Rifle/Caster).

In posting, I brought up the option that countering a turtling opponent was as simple as getting siege. I never said it was THE ONLY thing you should do. Obviously with a turtling player, you want to expand around the map and attempt to beat them out of the resource war. I don't agree that it's the only tactic that will win against someone that towers themselves in. Siege is the best answer to towers as far as units are concerned. I never said to mass them (6 Mortar teams is a little extreme, I think I was drunk when I posted that, but 4 Mortars - 12 food - is still a likely number to end up with by the end of the game), you obviously want to maintain a balanced force. If you do, I don't care if you're SK.Insomnia, you won't be able to counter every unit in a balanced force of Riflemen, Priests, Mortars, and Hawks/Gryphons at Tier 3 with the resources you'll end up with by the end of your turtling/towering. It's just not mathematically sound.

For example, in a Hu(X) v Hu(Y), player X turtles. They put up 8 Towers in their main base and 12 at their expo. That's 20 towers at 30g and 20w a piece. On top of that, they've upgraded to guard towers, 70g and 50w a piece. In addition TO THAT, add on 320g and 210w for upgrade to Keep and 360g and 210w for the upgrade to Castle. Add peasant production at 75g per (just to be sure we get it all now) and you're looking at what kind of unit production? Much less, what are you doing in the meantime? If you're creeping the map while your opponent's putting towers up, you're doing the wrong thing. If they're already up, get Siege. Park them outside of the range of the towers ALONG WITH THE REST OF YOUR FORCES (I say this because I know if I don't, someone will come along saying 'but theyhLL countr yur morts') and keep your opponent on the defensive. Expand around the map, yes, but keep applying pressure with Siege.

Unless your opponent has somehow managed to hack the game and up the resources they begin with, there should be no response from them when you have Mortar Teams. Riflemen take care of Air, Priests heal Riflemen and Mortar Teams, and you can get Hawks to cloud the towers and penetrate further to the production buildings and resource line.

I cannot speak for the other races, I know every race has Siege in the form of ground units or air units. There's no reason NOT to use them.

That is my argument for clarification. If this really, REALLY needs to be discussed further, I suggest you PM me here. We can discuss it, I'll play a game even, and you can turtle all you want. If you doubt my ability to discuss and play this game, then I suggest you put yourself to the test and play me. Win or lose, I'll post the replay right here for all to see and admit if I am wrong about this entire discussion.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

I believe some clarification is in order.

The question of Cookie Cutter vs Innovation was brought up in a long, long winded thread. I posted that Innovation was the way to go, as I was under the impression the thread was debating over the viability of less conservative methods of strategy for newer players to base their own gaming on. Turtling was mentioned in particular as a cheap method for players with low APM to win games, which may or may not be considered innovative. Either way, it's not a standard approach used as often as more conventional means (i.e. Rifle/Caster).

In posting, I brought up the option that countering a turtling opponent was as simple as getting siege. I never said it was THE ONLY thing you should do. Obviously with a turtling player, you want to expand around the map and attempt to beat them out of the resource war. I don't agree that it's the only tactic that will win against someone that towers themselves in. Siege is the best answer to towers as far as units are concerned. I never said to mass them (6 Mortar teams is a little extreme, I think I was drunk when I posted that, but 4 Mortars - 12 food - is still a likely number to end up with by the end of the game), you obviously want to maintain a balanced force. If you do, I don't care if you're SK.Insomnia, you won't be able to counter every unit in a balanced force of Riflemen, Priests, Mortars, and Hawks/Gryphons at Tier 3 with the resources you'll end up with by the end of your turtling/towering. It's just not mathematically sound.

For example, in a Hu(X) v Hu(Y), player X turtles. They put up 8 Towers in their main base and 12 at their expo. That's 20 towers at 30g and 20w a piece. On top of that, they've upgraded to guard towers, 70g and 50w a piece. In addition TO THAT, add on 320g and 210w for upgrade to Keep and 360g and 210w for the upgrade to Castle. Add peasant production at 75g per (just to be sure we get it all now) and you're looking at what kind of unit production? Much less, what are you doing in the meantime? If you're creeping the map while your opponent's putting towers up, you're doing the wrong thing. If they're already up, get Siege. Park them outside of the range of the towers ALONG WITH THE REST OF YOUR FORCES (I say this because I know if I don't, someone will come along saying 'but theyhLL countr yur morts') and keep your opponent on the defensive. Expand around the map, yes, but keep applying pressure with Siege.

Unless your opponent has somehow managed to hack the game and up the resources they begin with, there should be no response from them when you have Mortar Teams. Riflemen take care of Air, Priests heal Riflemen and Mortar Teams, and you can get Hawks to cloud the towers and penetrate further to the production buildings and resource line.

I cannot speak for the other races, I know every race has Siege in the form of ground units or air units. There's no reason NOT to use them.

That is my argument for clarification. If this really, REALLY needs to be discussed further, I suggest you PM me here. We can discuss it, I'll play a game even, and you can turtle all you want. If you doubt my ability to discuss and play this game, then I suggest you put yourself to the test and play me. Win or lose, I'll post the replay right here for all to see and admit if I am wrong about this entire discussion.

Woo! Innovation! I've been trying to come up with new strategies for so long... most of them in 2v2 team games, like mass Polymorph (easy for most races to beat but no-one was expecting it so it was such a laugh...), and mass Necros/Moon Strat (flopped hopelessly).

Or, you could (if you're Human, as in your scenario,) build mass Cannon Towers outside your opponent's base. Chances are they've got most (if not all) of their towers as Guard Towers, perhaps with a few Arcane, and the whole Cannon-longer-range thing allows you to harrass without ever moving your army, while expanding the map continuously, and get a good army, instead of one that's filled with siege and could be beaten by a large tier 3 force. Just a thought.

[GenocideAlive]

Prozeran does have no clue what hes talking about but i havent seen one statement from you that wasnt supid/obvious. And you say your level 40 which i doubt. Level 40 rt, maybe, but who cant get level 40 rt? And solo isnt to diffucult till level 25+ if your ell starts to get high.

Btw just checked your stats. And your level 38, not level 40.
I'm not really absorbing the significance of these statements. First you say there's no way I'm L40, then you observe I'm L38. You then remark that you got to L33. Did you know that L33 probably isn't even ranked ladder-wise? Did you know that L38+ is in the top 400? Given your remarks thus far, I doubt it. This isn't even good trolling.

The "you mass games" comment doesn't hurt my feelings, trust me. I've never been of the impression that smurfing took skill, and wherever you picked that notion up sure pulled the wool over your eyes. It must be really difficult to beat up on low-leveled players so you can get a nice record?

And Prozer, me beating you would prove nothing. It'd just be one guy beating another. You've got a nasty habit of ignoring what other people say or trying to twist it into another topic. It's what got you in trouble at WCS, not some giant innocent misunderstanding.

[cole]

Lets compare recs pls mr 50% mass solo gamer.Lol you say i just play low level players? Ive played level 35+ players too on my other acc due to my ell getting high. 27-8 now btw on solo. Going for 30-8 then i might stop playing until reset.

[Prozerran]

Woo! Innovation! I've been trying to come up with new strategies for so long... most of them in 2v2 team games, like mass Polymorph (easy for most races to beat but no-one was expecting it so it was such a laugh...), and mass Necros/Moon Strat (flopped hopelessly).

Or, you could (if you're Human, as in your scenario,) build mass Cannon Towers outside your opponent's base. Chances are they've got most (if not all) of their towers as Guard Towers, perhaps with a few Arcane, and the whole Cannon-longer-range thing allows you to harrass without ever moving your army, while expanding the map continuously, and get a good army, instead of one that's filled with siege and could be beaten by a large tier 3 force. Just a thought.

Heh, I can't really tell if you're being sarcastic or serious. It might work. Give it a shot and post a replay, I'd sure be interested to see it.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Heh, I can't really tell if you're being sarcastic or serious. It might work. Give it a shot and post a replay, I'd sure be interested to see it.

:)

I was actually being deadly serious (well not deadly, but you know what I mean...) so find the thread 'We need improvements!' for a replay of a win against a pretty bad Orc/Ud pairing. It's called 'Polyphoenix'.

(I can't post it again, WB won't allow it.)

[GenocideAlive]

Lets compare recs pls mr 50% mass solo gamer.Lol you say i just play low level players? Ive played level 35+ players too on my other acc due to my ell getting high. 27-8 now btw on solo. Going for 30-8 then i might stop playing until reset.
As though you could get to L39 "massing games" or otherwise. Smurfing never has been, isn't, and never will be impressive; it's for people with delicate egos that are scared to let the ladder system find them a level. The reason you people keep starting over is because your rec goes to 50% and you can't break L33. Seriously, if all you have going for you is some 35-game acct, that's pathetic. It's obvious why you don't post your old account--you don't want people looking at it because it's a fucking joke; just like your new one.

So add a few more "rofls" after every sentence and post 28-8 a few more times. Right-click on your name in the B.net screen and click "profile". Note how under Solo it says "unranked". You're nobody; case closed.

[cole]

As though you could get to L39 "massing games" or otherwise. Smurfing never has been, isn't, and never will be impressive; it's for people with delicate egos that are scared to let the ladder system find them a level. The reason you people keep starting over is because your rec goes to 50% and you can't break L33. Seriously, if all you have going for you is some 35-game acct, that's pathetic. It's obvious why you don't post your old account--you don't want people looking at it because it's a fucking joke; just like your new one.

So add a few more "rofls" after every sentence and post 28-8 a few more times. Right-click on your name in the B.net screen and click "profile". Note how under Solo it says "unranked". You're nobody; case closed.

lol i guarantee you suck. I bet you couldnt even get 28-8 if you wanted to, newbie. You think your good because your ranked?LOL? HEY ONLY TOOK YOU 999999999 GAMES. SERIOUSLY GJ BUDDY YOUR AWESOME. Keep starting over and over because my rec goes to 50% made me laugh right there. I dont suck like you, therefore my rec wouldnt get as crappy as yours, sorry.