I can't seem to win as terran without outlasting my opponent

[TomTheSaint]

The title pretty much says it all; whenever I play the computer, or a friend of mine, I win pretty much every time, but it takes me -forever-. As a terran, I usually start by building a bunch of SCV's, then a depot, barracks, and sending out a scout. I usually then start building another barracks, a few marines, and choose an expansion spot. As soon as I get enough minerals, i create and expansion and begin mining from both.

I think my problem may be that I am too economy-focused and tend to turtle with the standard bunker/turrent/tank defense (sometimes with wraiths). I'm extremely hard to kill, although usually a rush will hurt me and sometimes take out an expansion ( many times i'll have 2 expansions by the time the opponent finds and attacks me.

After watching replays, i find that my army is usually 2/3 to equal size of my opponents, but much of my army is embedded in defense. My theory is that I focus too much on security, usually securing every chokepoint I can and one I find my enemy, trying to surround them, and don't attack enough. Any advice I could be given on how to play more offensively would be appreciated. Also, if you need any clarification please ask.

(Note: I forgot to mention that I usually end up winning after my opponents resources are depleted, and often my own as well! The reason I always win at this point is because I take my units out of defensive fortifications and use them to attack.)

[MidnightGladius]

Well yeah, as I've always said, Terran is a dynamic race that tends to favor inactivity. You're a perfect example of this: forcing the opponent to take the battle to you.

Unfortunately, that only works with computers and lower-level players. Better people will simply out-expand you and beat down your defense (no defense is invulnerable as long as you use the right combination of units).

[TomTheSaint]

Well yeah, as I've always said, Terran is a dynamic race that tends to favor inactivity. You're a perfect example of this: forcing the opponent to take the battle to you.

Unfortunately, that only works with computers and lower-level players. Better people will simply out-expand you and beat down your defense (no defense is invulnerable as long as you use the right combination of units).

Well, as I mentioned I expand a lot. Against humans, i tend to get many more expansions than most people I play, unless i get repeatedly rushed. If that happens ( the computers usually send in a few waves of units) I'll try to cut off half of the map and secure my position before systematically taking enemy expansions.

That said, while I do usually have more expansions I only protect the front line ones, which, if the opponent breaks through, leaves me with only my army to defend me. Many times, against the computer, I'll expand to around 3-4 bases only to have them break through one of them, leaving my other bases exposed. Eventually, I'll get pushed back to my main base, defeat the computer's army there, then reconquer most of the map ( at least half).

Also, once I gain the advantage, I tend to send out 2-3 small groups, one as a decoy, then two to destroy a base then disappear. My games almost always take +1hr and are very frustrating for my opponent ( I seem to always come back from the brink of death, but near the end play very cautiously when I attack. I've had my friends tell me to "HURRY UP AND KILL ME ALREADY" before lol.

I should probably call my strategy "Spanish Starcraft":
Build up an empire which seems invincible
Have one area get destroyed, causing a chain reaction
Have all but one area of my land conquered
Reconquest.

[Generic_Amateur]

Practicing rushes might help. Pick something basic, like a metal rush against 'toss, M&M against zerg, or . . . I've no TvT experience. =O Practice it against a computer, rinse, repeat, memorise, use against humans.

Not much creativity involved, but it gets fun once you get the hang of it. =D (not guaranteed)

[MidnightGladius]

TomTheSaint, if you fight an expansion war, you'll be outexpanded by Zerg and out-powered by toss. I'm not sure what you mean by a "front line", but in any map with a middle, toss can take and hold it with no tank push interference and strike in more places than you can defend. Same with Zerg, except that Zerg cost-efficiency will allow them to power drones off of their main and mass expand. If you don't pressure them with M&M, you'll find swarm/lurk/ling ultra running you over, with some muta harassment for kicks.

[TomTheSaint]

TomTheSaint, if you fight an expansion war, you'll be outexpanded by Zerg and out-powered by toss. I'm not sure what you mean by a "front line", but in any map with a middle, toss can take and hold it with no tank push interference and strike in more places than you can defend. Same with Zerg, except that Zerg cost-efficiency will allow them to power drones off of their main and mass expand. If you don't pressure them with M&M, you'll find swarm/lurk/ling ultra running you over, with some muta harassment for kicks.

Interesting input, I'll keep what you said in mind. In response:

By front line I mean that I only heavily reinforce my expansions which are under pressure by the enemy. I keep a few missle turrents in all my expansions, usually with some ground support, but I only do the bunker/seigh tank thing at expansions and choke points which are at risk of coming under attack.

Also, what you said about zerg out-expanding me seems fairly true- the computer usually takes half the map when it plays zerg, but when I play zerg I nearly always transport-drop units into their expansions and harrass their workers. I still turtle my half of the map, but my goal is to harrass them as much as possible and weaken them for a decisive strike.

Against protoss computers, I usually end up expanding to the middle of the map fast and slowly advancing with seigh tanks as I air-drop marines into their base.

Unfortunately, I don't have much experience vs. human zerg and protoss because all my friends play terran, and there aren't many newbie-friendly games on b-net =(

[MidnightGladius]

Ah!

There we go...I knew there was a faulty point somewhere in your argument.

The computer will never consolidate. It only throws units at your defenses endlessly. Believe me, as terran, I can probably kill a zerg computer in less than ten minutes and a toss one in less than 5.

If you need someone to help you out at PvT and ZvT, I can probably fill that role when I get back to the US (two weeks from now).

[TomTheSaint]

Ah!

There we go...I knew there was a faulty point somewhere in your argument.

The computer will never consolidate. It only throws units at your defenses endlessly. Believe me, as terran, I can probably kill a zerg computer in less than ten minutes and a toss one in less than 5.

If you need someone to help you out at PvT and ZvT, I can probably fill that role when I get back to the US (two weeks from now).

Lol, it wasn't an argument so much as it was an explaination of my tactics but yes, the computer is fairly dumb ( though a heck of a lot better at rushes than I am). Playing against you would be most appreciated ^^. Like I said, I've very little experience against human players of any race besides terran.

[MidnightGladius]

Well, in that case, as I said, wait til I get back to the US... stupid 56k computer...

[Cpt.Chronic]

Sup Tom? Welcome to Warboards.

You seem to have a good stategical mind, but lack experience against experienced players. Your general ideas are good, but there are some small details that you have wrong. Let's see here...

First off, it sounds like you are playing fairly large maps, which generally lead to longer games. Try limiting the size of the map to 128 x 128 or even a little smaller. Lost Temple is generally a good map to start with as that's the most popular one, and for good reason: it's a damn good map. But that's not to say there aren't other, better maps out there. Check out the map pack at www.wgtour.com (http://www.wgtour.com) for a nice variety of balanced maps.

When you play Terran vs Protoss try what's called a joyo rush. It's a good rush vs a couple different protoss builds and will let you defend vs dt if need be. Best part about it is that it puts you in control of the game early on. Basically, here's how it goes as far as I can remember.

Build supply (scout after this), barracks (build 5 marines, but don't queue them as you will need those minerals for factories/tanks-- just have your 5th marine done by the time your 3rd tank is finished), refinery (put 3 scv on gas), factory (get add-on, build 2 tanks), supply (from this point on just build supply depots as needed), factory (get add-on, build 1 tank), attack with 3 tanks, 5 marines, and 2 scvs. Now start building vultures and rally them to your enemey's choke. Start researching both vulture speed and mines as soon as you have the minerals. Now your troops should be reaching his base and your first vultures just arriving. The point is to push past his initial dragoons (most people that you'll play on LT will go straight to goons vs. terran) and get your vultures that you have rallied inside his base to kill probes. Use the mines to help you kill the goons if you can micro it, if not just place mines on the way to his probes or in front of his gateways to kill new units. If you get up his ramp (or past his choke) with your marines still alive you can build a bunker for them with the scvs or repair the tanks.

[MidnightGladius]

That's a bit complicated, Cpt.Chronic. Just stick with the essential tank push (you'll need it anyways if your rush fails). Basically, leap-frog tanks (siege/unsiege) with spider mines at the front and turrets to detect dts and stop shuttle drops/observers.

There are two kinds of tank push: fast and slow. Slow pushes revolve around consolidating before advancing, while fast pushes tell you to do exactly that; go as quickly as you can forward. A properly done slow push will be impossible to stop, but the toss can snag enough expansions and counter with carriers/arbs. A fast push, on the other hand, requires more skill (faster clicking to get tanks in place, faster/better mine placement, turret construction, repair, etc.), and can be stopped if they catch you while you're on the move (unsieged tanks, detection not running). However, if not stopped, you can push right into their natural/main and they won't have enough time to get their expos up and running.

Hope that helped.

[Generic_Amateur]

Actually, the joyo push can be quite effective.

Taken from SCLegacy, Credit goes to FireInTheHole.

http://www.sclegacy.com/strategy/terran/fireinyourhole_cheaprush.php

[MidnightGladius]

I said it was complicated, not ineffective. I don't seem to recall losing to it though (don't play terran).

[Generic_Amateur]

Orright, lemme rephrase my previous statement since you felt so compelled to embolden your word(no "s").

I personally think that the joyo rush/push (?) is less complicated than the average metal push/rush.

[MidnightGladius]

I think a joyo rush needs more micro, but w/e.

[TomTheSaint]

I think a joyo rush needs more micro, but w/e.

I think they're both good strategies, in a few tries I'm sure I could pull off a joyo rush, it really just involves running my units by the enemies base instead of using them to defend my own, and then using less marines but more vultures ( I never use them against protoss actually, I should look into the whole mine thing.)

I tend to be half-decent at micro and macro, usually I'll air-drop in some tanks and marines into the opponents base, attack move the marines a short distance so they can cover the tanks yet still attack, then comsat the area and let the tanks do their thing. As this goes on I'm usually also building up more forces as I load them into the dropship to reinforce my new position ( or if the enemy has weak defenses I'll land them in a second area).

I tend to focus on the tactical and economic side of starcraft, and - in late game - I normally do quite well. My main problem is that I can't rush for beans, which is why both of your strategies are so helpful. Also, I usually end up with an imbalance between my defensive troops and my offensive army ( I like playing it safe and not leaving myself exposed when I attack, but then again I'm strange in that one of the first things I often do when under attack is to send a few units into the enemy's base to lure them back)I tend to think that the joyo one would be poor against the zerg though (you did say Versus protoss) , especially since the computer will probably have massed a lot of zerglings and hydralisks by the time I get a few tanks out.

Oh, also, I've played lost temple a couple of times against the comp, never against a human though, I need to try it. But so far it's my best map against the computer ( I like to fly a barracks to the opposite side of the map so that I can surprise me enemy with marines) The only part I strongly dislike is that the bases only have one entrance - which seems to mandate either huge rushes of mass units or airdrops. ( It is nice when you're defending though, especially with seigh tanks) I like air-drops though.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Really it's not that hard to micro the joyo rush and run the vultures to his miners once there is a clear path thru his choke. Just focus fire on the goons and they melt like butter. IMO, it's much harder for the protoss to micro against it unless they went straight 2 gate goon pump, which is the best counter to the joyo rush. If the toss did 1-gate-anything, the terran will have the advantage in the first battle.

[TomTheSaint]

If someone can show me how to atatch a file I have a replay of a game someone might want to watch...

[Cpt.Chronic]

Hit the "Go Advanced" button at the bottom of the thread then hit the "Manage Attachments" button.

[TomTheSaint]

Ah, there we go; thank you. This is a match I played against the comp this morning ( wasn't paying full attention but I tried containing the computer and, if possible, would love to hear any comments)

[Cpt.Chronic]

Ah, there we go; thank you. This is a match I played against the comp this morning ( wasn't paying full attention but I tried containing the computer and, if possible, would love to hear any comments)
Playing against the computer is *almost* completely pointless. In no way do computers play like humans nor do they react to what you're doing (such as counter attacks or counter units). I'll play a game or two with you if you want and I'll be able to give you much better advice than watching you vs a comp.

[MidnightGladius]

Please, never post a replay involving a computer unless you're demonstrating something like the morph hack.

My opinions:

1gate: tech, either for reaver drop or templar
2gate: power and somewhat later tech, usually to obs
3gate: high power and much later tech, almost always to obs

On LT, I usually go 3gate (unless scout shows enemy to be doing something really weird) and contain them for as long as possible until their push comes out. Then, I expand to my natural, the closest empty natural, and then its main. Of course, this doesn't work in some cases, primarily 12/3, but the advantage is being able to control 4 assimilators and defend all 4 from the center. Constantly power goon/zeal while teching to obs and citadel simultaneously. By that point, their push will be coming out, and you can then flank it from your second main.

Of course, it only works in some cases...scouting is still imperative.

[TomTheSaint]

Playing against the computer is *almost* completely pointless. In no way do computers play like humans nor do they react to what you're doing (such as counter attacks or counter units). I'll play a game or two with you if you want and I'll be able to give you much better advice than watching you vs a comp.

Like I said before though, I have no one to play against lol. I managed to get one match against human opponents today that wasn't a money map, and it was a 2v2 where my ally didn't build any units besides gatherers >< Playing against you would be excellent though- when can you go on b-net?

[Cpt.Chronic]

What's the point in getting 4 assimilator's vs. terran? PvT is a low-gas matchup for the toss and high-gas matchup for the terran. I'll almost always expand to my mineral-only for my 2nd expo if I take my natural first (as opposed to taking another main as your first expo).

Like I said before though, I have no one to play against lol. I managed to get one match against human opponents today that wasn't a money map, and it was a 2v2 where my ally didn't build any units besides gatherers >< Playing against you would be excellent though- when can you go on b-net?
I'll be on later tonight around 10 pm central (maybe a little later) and am on most weekday nights after 10 pm. What's your b.net nick? The one I'm currently using is WooTDoG(DL)

[TomTheSaint]

10pm cent. is 11pm here but I can probably get on. My b-net nick is DeathByAngels on the US east server and TomTheSaint on all the others. Which server are you on?

[Cpt.Chronic]

Oh, sorry, forgot to mention...I'm on East. And actually tonight might not be the best night as I'm caught up at work. I'll try to make it, but no need to wait up for me.

[MidnightGladius]

The point is to allow for you to stockpile gas for temp/obs/carriers/arbs while also denying gas to them.

[TomTheSaint]

Lol well I don't see you on tonight but i *did* get a 1v1 against a zerg player. We're both pretty bad but if anyone wouldn't mind checking out the game I would greatly appreciate it =)

[MidnightGladius]

Just a hint: name replays such (brackets indicate where you fill in information):

<your race>v<enemy race> <enemy name>: <map abbreviation>

1. you aren't building workers, and your clone was kinda off.

2. you might want to build your rax/depot at your choke to create a "wall".

3. eh, I'm not big on proxying raxs against zerg, but I'll continue watching...

4. ouch, that hurt. you have way too much money and not enough marines. A good rush would have run you over.

I don't have any more time, but that's what I saw.

[TomTheSaint]

Just a hint: name replays such (brackets indicate where you fill in information):

<your race>v<enemy race> <enemy name>: <map abbreviation>

1. you aren't building workers, and your clone was kinda off.

2. you might want to build your rax/depot at your choke to create a "wall".

3. eh, I'm not big on proxying raxs against zerg, but I'll continue watching...

4. ouch, that hurt. you have way too much money and not enough marines. A good rush would have run you over.

I don't have any more time, but that's what I saw.

In comparison to how many workers I had, how many should I build?
What's a clone?
Yeah, the barracks didn't work out too well
and I'll keep in mind about the marines.

Also, thanks for the naming advice.

[Generic_Amateur]

1) Get BWChart. http://www.bwchart.com/

2) I ran your replay through BWChart, and it showed that you had an APM of 30 (your opponent APM's 26). With a bit of effort, you can easily get it up to approximately 60.

Of course, I'll be scoffed at if I only placed emphasis on high APMs. =P If you

3) Idle peons (be it SCVs, probes or drones) are inexcusable. Or your machine was lagging. =/ In any case, set a rally point closer to the resources you intend the up-and-coming peon to harvest, or a rally point to where you intend the up-and-coming peon to build a building, etc.

4) Whilst we're on the subject of rally points, you ought to rally your barracks (usually called "rax") and factories (called "Fac/Fax") so that your newly created units will automatically rally at a convenient spot to be easily allocated for offensive/defensive purposes. Update your rally points as necessary.

5) The "A" hotkey (move-attack) is not to be used liberally. Your first foray towards the enemy base with a sizable force could've went better if you had used a different formation. For example, a curve that allows more units to fire upon the enemy at one time, instead of a line that would be chewed up like spaghetti. Maintaining a good formation is important, especially if you're not sure how enemy units will approach your forces.

6) I'm not sure about this, but did you Ctrl-group your ComSat? I would sugget assigning it to group "0" (zero).

7) Make sure your production buildings are ALWAYS making units. Failing that, have your SCVs build more production buildings and supplies (Supply deopts). Don't get caught by having not enough depots.

8) Ah yes, the choke. Watch a few replays to get an idea of how chokes are placed on a map. Or go into SCEdit and figure out a good choke placement.

9) Get BWCoach (and use it). http://www.bwchart.com/ The link to the help file is at http://bwchart.teamliquid.net/us/bwcoach-howto.php

10) Well, my apologies for this haphazard reply, and I'm glad to help out a fellow SC player. =D (I'm mainly a 'toss player, though =P)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) How many workers should I build?
Three per patch of crystal, three per gas of optimum harvesting. Not to be followed to death. Keep building more for expansions.

2) What's a clone?

Cloning is one of the most often confusing topics discussed on the board, yet it is a fairly important technique that any beginner can learn with very little practice.

Cloning is a method of coordinating simultaneous attacks, the word is a misnomer because you're not really duplicating a unit, it's more that you're getting a bunch of units to do the same thing to different targets. If you've ever seen the comp lockdown 12 BCs all at once and wonder if you can do the same, the answer is Yes and cloning is the technique that does this for you. This technique originated in War2 when someone figured out how to get sappers (similar to infested terrans) to all charge into a base at once and then branch off and hit separate targets.

Here is an explanation of the technique. I will use as an example the process of getting your first 4 peons most quickly to different minerals at the start of the game.

Technique
1) Select all your 4 peons.
2) Right-click them on one mineral patch.
3) Immediately de-select one peon in your wireframe portraits window by holding down SHIFT and clicking on one wireframe portrait. Release SHIFT afterward.
4) Right-click the remaining 3 to another mineral patch.
5) De-select one peon again.
6) Right-click the remaining 2 to another mineral patch.
7) De-select one peon again.
8) Right-click the remaining peon to another mineral patch.

If you do this correctly, then all 4 peons will reach different patches at roughly the same time. Hopefully the instructions are clear enough that you can practice this a bit. I suggest creating a dummy game against the comp on slowest speed, and just try this repeatedly a few times until you have it down.

Other examples
There are countless scenarios where cloning can allow you to do amazing things. Sometimes I'm even accused of using some sort of hack by beginner players when I use cloning techniques against them. I'll give some examples of where this can come in handy.

Scourge
Scourge are the most cost effective unit in the game hands down, but they are fairly difficult to use. If you just attack-move them, they'll tend to overkill units or waste themselvse on things like interceptors. The big problem with scourge is that they will overdetonate on targets. Right-click 12 scourge on one wraith and they may ALL detonate on the wraith even though it only takes 2 to kill it.

It would be great if you could get your scourge to behave better. Cloning is an easy way to do this. Let's consider the example of scourge vs. wraiths. It takes 2 scourge to kill 1 wraith. Suppose he has 6 wraiths and you make 12 scourge. You can clone your scourge to kill his wraiths using the same technique above. Replace "mineral patch" with "wraith" and "peon" with "scourge". The only trick is that you want 2 scourge per wraith, not 1, so we'll modify the technique a bit. Assume you can somehow see the wraiths, either because you have parasite or they're attacking something of yours. You do need a little distance to do this unless you're really fast or are playing on a slow speed, so I would start about a screen+1/2 away.

1) Select all 12 scourge.
2) Right-click them all on one wraith.
3) Deselect one scourge.
4) Deselect one scourge.
5) Right-click the remaining 10 onto another wraith.
6) Repeat 3-5 until you have no scourge left.

You can also do this against bigger targets such as carriers. I'll take 12 scourge, right-click on one carrier, deselect 6 scourge, right-click the remaining on the next carrier. Etc. If you're worried about your scourge getting shot down before they reach their targets, just add 1 more scourge per target than necessary. 3 per wraith or muta, 6 per carrier or BC, etc.

Ghosts
As I mentioned above, you can get ghosts to lockdown targets simultaneously with this technqiue too. Suppose you're fighting against BCs. Comsat to see where the battlecruiers are, and replace "peon" with "ghost" and "mineral patch" with "battlecruiser" in the above rules. Hit "L" and tell all your ghosts to lockdown one battlecruiser, then deselect one and tell the rest to lockdown another, then deselect one and tell the rest to lockdown another, etc. In detail:
1) Comsat where his BCs are.
2) Select your 12 ghosts.
3) Press "L" for lockdown and click on one BC.
4) Deselect one ghost.
5) Repeat 3-4 until you have no ghosts left.

Scouting
I will also use this occasionally for scouting, particularly in team games, if I want to get a bunch of cheap units to go to different areas of the map without much effort. For example, with zergling:
1) Select your 12 zergling.
2) Right-cilck them soemwhere on the mini-map where you want to explore.
3) Deselect one zergling.
4) Repeat 2-3 until you have no zergling.

If you have burrow, this is even better. I'd hotkey my zergling to some temporary hotkey before sending them off, then wait until I see they've reached their destination on the minimap, then select them with my hotkey and hit "U" to burrow them wherever they are all at once.

You can also do this with vultures and spider mines to get them to all lay mines at different locations. After you're done cloning, re-select your vultuers, hold down shift, and click back to your base. This will make your vulturse all speed out to their destinations, lay their mines, then run back home afterward. In detail:
1) Hotkey your 12 vultures to 5.
2) Select all your vultures.
3) Hit "I" and click on some spot on the minimap.
4) Deselect one vulture.
5) Repeat 3-4 until you have no vultures.
6) Hold down shift and click back to your base.

Another annoying uses
I'll also use this with BCs on the rare occasions I have them. Let's say I'm planning to attack a base but see some scary things there. I'll comsat the base, then clone my BCs to yamato different targets.

If I'm playing Zerg and want to humiliate my opponent, I'll sometimes build a fleet of queens, parasite his drone or SCV in his base, and then clone the queens to spawn broodling his peons.

If I have SVs and am playing against Zerg, I'll comsat where I think Zerg units are, and clone my SVs to irradiate different targets. Irradiate is cheap so you should definitely try this out a few times. This is absolute murder to him. Suppose he has 6 ultras sitting around nearby, and I have 6 SVs. I can use the technique similar to with vultures and mining to get the SVs to irradiate different ultras and then run back to base.

For ZvZ, scourge use is absolutely critical since ZvZ is typically all about air power and map control with mutas. Scourge use often determines who wins this matchup. I would suggest just cloning one scourge per muta. This doesn't kill the muta, but it does bring it down to a measily 10 health. Your other units can then take care of his near-dead mutas. One easy way to clone is to have scourge ready, then bait your opponent into attacking some unit. For example, I'll leave an exposed spore colony somewhere near my base, or some overlords. Once the mutas start attacking, I'll immediately clone my scourge from hopefully nearby. If you do this right and take 12 of his mutas down to 10 hp each in early game, it's pretty much GG to him because there is little he can do to recover until he can get hive and convert those into full-health guards or devourers.

Limitations
Using comsat to spot for cloning lockdowns or what not is very handy, as the ghosts will still clone even after the comsat wears off if they have not reached their targets by then. However, if you are using comsat to target burrowed or cloaked units, your clone will abort with an error once the comsat wears off, so you may have to re-comsat to maintain your lock. Also, if your targets move significantly after you lose sight, you may not get your clone off. This is because if a unit is given a target and sight is removed, the unit will go to the last known position of the target.

Conclusions
I hope this has given you some taste of the wonderful world of cloning in SC. In Warcraft3, the computer will clone for you -- if you tell 12 ghosts to lockdown one BC, only 1 will do so. In SC, since we don't have this capability, you'll just have to do it yourself manually.

Cloning opens up a whole world of possibilities to even the beginner player, and is something that can be practiced and learned fairly quickly. Again, if you need practice, just play against the comp on slowest speed and try cloning your first 4 peons to separate patches. If you get good at this, gradually raise the speed until you can clone on fastest. Then try it in different in-game situations.

Appendix I: Replay sites
Thanks to ieatkids6 2/13/2005:
If you want to watch some replays of pro SC players, you can download them with these links. Save them to your replays folder, open SC single player, and just play the rep.
My Computer --> C Drive --> Program Files --> Starcraft --> Maps --> Replays

http://www.teamareola.com/replaySecular.php
http://replays.wanjia.cc/screp/
http://yaoyuan.com/
http://www.supremestarcraft.com/repdb/
http://www.teamliquid.net/replays
http://ygclan.vgaclub.co.kr/?m=replay&board=gosureplay
http://www.wgtour.com/rep.php?datab=broodwar
http://www.reps.ru/replays.php
http://www.gosugamers.net/replays.php
http://www.pgtour.net/replaybw.viewall.php?db=bw
http://www.gamingeye.com/pc/strategi/starcraft/replays/
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=14492
http://act.it.sohu.com/war3/xingji.php

Credit goes to shockwave[xpow] of the Bnet forums. (I would suggest reading his thread http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc-general&t=28522&p=1)

[Cpt.Chronic]

Wow, nice post Gen_Am.

Tom I see you viewing the thread. I'm about to log on b.net if you want play...

[TomTheSaint]

I'll check out the bwchart thing, it sounds interesting. 30 actions per minute sounds low to me, usually i'm clicking rapidly, but my wireless connection was acting oddly during that game ( b-net said i got disconnected right before i sent in that first slaughtered infantry unit- i sent them to see if the enemy was still there and didn't think to A-move)

hmm.. that partially explains the peon thing, but you make a good point about the rally for the command center. I usually just put it at some spot where I'll be able to tell if I have an idle peon i just build ( i.e. away from the masses of peons which are gathering)

I do usually rally the barracks and factories, if you notice I rallied both barracks to the chokepoint directly outside my base- but I rarely change the rally point, which I should try to.

Using waypoints with attack-move is a good idea ( i think that's what you meant by a curve) I've never done more than select the location i want them to go to, but that is very good and subtle advice.

I always ctrl-group my comsats, usually I'll get 2-3 of them and make them 8/9/0.

I forget if i was ever caught without enough supply depots, I usually build them when I have less than 8 spare supply units and only run low on supplies if i forget.

As far as choke points, i don't think replay saves chat, but I actually ended up asking my opponent if there were any minerals on the map because I had no idea what the layout was ><; I ended up com-sat'ing a group of them when I had 410 minerals left ( barely enough for another command center). I'm sure once I play more and begin memorizing the layouts of popular maps and the general designs I'll get better at that.

I'll also take a look at this BW coach thing, whatever it may be.

Honestly, i had no idea 3 peons could mine one mineral patch >_>; I always thought it was 1 at a time, and you could do 2 because of travel time fromt he patch to the CC.

Thank you very much for your reply, it was very helpful ^^ It's nice to find a good community running so long after a game's release. We should definately play sometime, newbie wars!

Wow, nice post Gen_Am.

Tom I see you viewing the thread. I'm about to log on b.net if you want play...

Sorry, I just got off around 30 min ago and have some stuff to do before I go to sleep ><; maybe tomorrow.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Well one thing about that post by Gen_Am is that I don't think that cloning is as important as he makes it out to be. Sure, it's nice to clone your workers in the begining or when you transfer workers to an expo (always transfer works to new expos). And f you want to use scourge effectively you're going need good cloning. Other than that, cloning is not really that important, and most things that can be done through cloning, can also be done through other methods just as effectively, such as locking down with hotkeyed ghosts instead of cloning them.

Probably the two most important things for you to concentrate on at this point is to always be building workers (and transfer around 12 workers to any new expansion), and try to keep your mineral count below 500.

[Generic_Amateur]

True, I rarely get to clone stuff besides my initial peons. Actually, I have trouble keeping my mineral count below 500, too - sometimes when I'm playing terran I settle for building Ebays (Engineering Bays) to "supplement" my attacking forces with a view of high ground (yeah, I only play Lost Temple, so that's quite useful - for a n00b like me, anyway :3).

[TomTheSaint]

I always end up getting around 1600 resources because I stop building units as often halfway through the game ><; I need to try upgrading more and just building a ton of marines if nothing else when i get too many resources.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Ok, I'm watching your replay now so I'll tell you some things I notice...

-proxy rax didn't work...oh well
-you should constantly be building from your cc and your rax's
-rally your rax units to your choke (just right click while you have the rax selected)
-learn what units work best vs each race; generally speaking you want to use marine/medic, seige tanks, and science vessels with irradiate vs zerg. Put your troops on numerical hotkeys. Keep marines seperate from the other units' hotkeys so that you can stim them just by hitting their hotkey, "t".
-Speaking of stim, you should research it as soon as your academy is done and marine range shortly after
-Vultures are usually not good vs. zerg unless you rush to them and try to run them past his choke and pick of drones, but that's more of an advanced tactic because you have to switch techs back to marine/medic while not being killed by mutas.
-Your attacks are so bad :( Remember to hotkey alll your troops and move them all together. Scan or use science vessel to scout where you're going to move your army so you don't walk over lurks.
-you have that engineering bay-- use it. Upgrading +1 armor allow your marines to survive 1 extra hit by lurkers or sunken colonies.
-It's 18 minutes into game and neither of you have expaned...that's horrible :(
-too many firebats, not enough rines. Firebats are really only useful vs lings, for instance if the zerg goes for the common muta/ling combo.

[MidnightGladius]

Alright, I finished watching the replay, and pretty much everything Cpt.Chronic said is true.

Kinda off topic, but your siggy link is broken, Cpt.Chronic.

[TomTheSaint]

Ok, I'm watching your replay now so I'll tell you some things I notice...

-proxy rax didn't work...oh well
-you should constantly be building from your cc and your rax's
-rally your rax units to your choke (just right click while you have the rax selected)
-learn what units work best vs each race; generally speaking you want to use marine/medic, seige tanks, and science vessels with irradiate vs zerg. Put your troops on numerical hotkeys. Keep marines seperate from the other units' hotkeys so that you can stim them just by hitting their hotkey, "t".
-Speaking of stim, you should research it as soon as your academy is done and marine range shortly after
-Vultures are usually not good vs. zerg unless you rush to them and try to run them past his choke and pick of drones, but that's more of an advanced tactic because you have to switch techs back to marine/medic while not being killed by mutas.
-Your attacks are so bad :( Remember to hotkey alll your troops and move them all together. Scan or use science vessel to scout where you're going to move your army so you don't walk over lurks.
-you have that engineering bay-- use it. Upgrading +1 armor allow your marines to survive 1 extra hit by lurkers or sunken colonies.
-It's 18 minutes into game and neither of you have expaned...that's horrible :(
-too many firebats, not enough rines. Firebats are really only useful vs lings, for instance if the zerg goes for the common muta/ling combo.

Okay, thanks for your input. In response:
The rax didn't work at all lol, that was a bad idea.
- I did end up rallying them to my choke point a bit later, in the beginning I just let them pop out next to the barracks since i placed them close to eachother.
- I was trying out vultures that game, i've never actually used them before, but it seemed like they would be fairly effective since their attacks are good v/ low armor ( which most zerg are, right?)
- Uhm.. I do hotkey my units, but I have a bad scouting problem lol- I never know what my opponent is doing, which is bad ><;
-with my academy, I usually upgrade range first and then stim pack, should I be doing it the other way around ?
- I honestly couldn't find any minerals, thats why i didn't expand. Replays don't show chat but I ended up asking my opponent if there were any at all. We both said "I'm almost out and I can't find any". Luckily I comsat'd one group. ( I had been saving my energy for lurkers)
-with science vessels, I wasn't focusing much on air units, as he was building a lot of hydras. I build a few wraiths in the beginning, but decided not to do any more until I had the upper hand- which was near the end.
- I did have a lot of firebats, but the enemy kept building zerglings so, wasn't that good? After he attacked with nothig but hydra/zerg/lurkers a few times, i started building stuff against that.
-oh, and when is normally a good time to expand? I usually do it asap but since that leaves me very open to rushes i've been waiting a lot longer than usual ( this game isn't a good example though)

[Cpt.Chronic]

Tom, you should really listen to my advice and try to incorporate into your gameplay instead of refuting it. Even if it doesn't make sense to you, there is a reason why I said the things I said: they work. Once you start doing these things, you will see for yourself why they work. As for the questions you had...

Vultures do 100% damage to small units, 50% to medium, and 25% to large units. The only small ground units zergs have are lings and drones, but still firebats are better vs lings than vultures. You should almost always have more barracks than factories in TvZ so building firebats not only counters lings better, but is also quicker. Again, you really only need firebats if he goes extremely heavy on the lings. Marines are actually very effective in their own right vs. lings. You just need to micro them. Always stim if you're attacking, then transfer the marines that are being attacked to behind your other rines, thus saving their lives :o Marines are effective vs all zerg units, firebats only vs. lings.

There are many situations which are good times to expand.
-if you just won a battle and killed many of his units.... he will be focusing on rebuilding his units and won't have a large enough force to attack your new expo.
-if you have your enemy contained.
-if you are starting to rack up excess minerals
-there are other situations when you expand that you will learn through experience

Research stim first, range second.

Don't think of science vessels as "air units." Sure, they fly around and stuff, but think of them as support units and scouters that you send ahead of major troop movements. You probably shouldn't worry about wraiths at this point and try to focus more on marine/medic/tank/science vessel and keeping all your troops together during an attack instead of attacking with only half. TvZ is easily the most micro-intensive terran matchup and takes a lot of practice to even become mediocre at it.

[TomTheSaint]

First off, thank you again for your input.

I'm not just refuting your advice, I don't think i've argued against a single thing you've said. What I say in my responses is clarification on the situation, to hopefully give you a better idea what was going through my mind at the time. For example, the science vessels. You make a great point not to think of them as air units, which i normally do. next time I play against zerg, I assure you that I will by trying out eradicate ( or whatever that move is called) and keeping a few vessels with my force.

Also, the vultures/firebats. I didn't say you were wrong and that i shouldn't follow your advice, I told you what I was thinking in building them. I thought that hydralisks were low armor units which would take the full damage from firebats and vultures, now I know better thanks to you.

I have actually noticed that marines seem to be by far my most effective unit, and I don't even stim pak them o.O ( Which I also need to try next time i play). I just want you to know that I do in fact listen to any advice I am given and incorporate it into my strategy ( for example the vultures, I have never built them en masse in a game before, but a few people mentioned to me that they were good with mines and such, a tactic i used heavily that game).

If I frustrated you, I apologize, I'm merely trying to help you to help me by giving you more information on the topics you specify. I thank you for your help though. =)

[Cpt.Chronic]

Well alright then. I thought you were saying something along the lines of, "No, vultures work best because..." when instead you were just explaining why you thought they would work best. Simple misunderstanding. Anyway, vultures are mainly used in the tvp matchup in combination with seige tanks and turrets. The threat of mutalisks is the main reason they don't work well vs. zerg. Combine that with the reduced damage they do vs. most zerg units and the fact that zerg have detectors from the start, it really makes them quite ineffective except for in rare situations.

oh, and you're welcome :)

[TomTheSaint]

ah, ok. I know they work really well against zealots, which is probably why many players use them against protoss. Luckily for me, the other player didn't build muties ^-^ not something I can rely on though lol.

Btw, goliaths are one of my favorite units, and they seem to work fairly well against anyone, as long as they have some support against zergling masses. Any tips on using them against zerg/protoss?

[Cpt.Chronic]

Btw, goliaths are one of my favorite units, and they seem to work fairly well against anyone, as long as they have some support against zergling masses. Any tips on using them against zerg/protoss?
There's really only 2 or 3 situations to use them vs. Protoss.
-He's making carriers (make many golis) or arbiters (you'll only need a handfull)
-You're going for a heavy drop style game and are playing on a map with cliffs above bases/expansions (i.e. Lost Temple). This is not a style I reccomend as it forces you to turtle. Tank pushes work best vs. toss, which don't use golis.

They're really not that great vs zerg either. Contrary to what one would assume, goliaths don't really work well vs. mutalisks because they only do 50% damage to small air units (i.e. mutalisks). Marines with stim and range work best vs. mutas. Irradiate (and if you get desperate, valkyries) works well vs mutas too.

Their main use comes in the TvT matchup. Use them to support your seige tanks and protect them against being dropped on or against wraith attacks. They're also great to drop in combination with tanks.

btw, can you see my sig?

[TomTheSaint]

Yeah, it's a shuttle that looks like it's carpet bombing a bunch of vultures, though it looks like they're being killed by the tanks in reality ( maybe mines?)
Thanks for the info btw.

[MidnightGladius]

Your sig link is broken...link it up to imageshack and then redirect it here.

[TomTheSaint]

Your sig link is broken...link it up to imageshack and then redirect it here.

I can see it- I think it's just you >_> try updating the graphics driver's for your computer.

[PeachesAreTasty]

TvP: At Tom's level, I actually would recommend going mass drops instead of tank pushing - it's much easier, and unless he's playing someone a LOT better than him, it will work fairly well. If he starts expanding to other mains (where there's no cliff), just drop your force there to kill the nexus and probes, then pick them up and run away. If he has zeal/goon stationed there, drop at the ramp, and slowly siege the expo. That way, you will have an advantage in defeating his reinforcements, since you are positioned on top of the ramp.

As for the joyo/gundam/bamboo/ or w/e rush you were talking about, it is very micro intensive, so I don't know. Try it, and if it works well, keep using it, but if you meet a player who knows what he's doing, he will crush it if you don't micro properly. If you can't enter his base with it, don't worry, just stay outside and set up a containment. Also, this kind of rush is vulnerable to DTs and reaver drops, especially if you're not expecting it.
If he rushes to reavers, he will drop the reaver in your main right as you're attacking him. Sure, you might be able to defeat w/e he has in his main, and slowly start killing the rest of his base, but he'll kill you're scvs/main faster with his reaver. Or he can simply defend his base with the reaver, and defeat your small army.
If he has DTs, you will need very good vult/mine micro (which you probably don't have), so you will be in trouble. Normally with this rush, I would have my rax still lifted up so that I can send reinforcements. This allows DTs to enter your base. If you land your rax, he will kill your small army of tanks, vults, and rines, which gives him the lead.

TvZ: For a rush, do a normal 2 rax rine/med build, but get a factory pretty fast so you can get a tank or 2 (to kill sunks). Don't forget to get detection, and a bunk and some turrets at your minerals against mutas. This rush will work very well for you.

TvT: Start off with 2 fact tanks, and then take your natural expand when you're comfortable. Then, just like TvP, go mass tank/gol drops. Keep expanding too.

[ReD_ICE]

I can't believe i havent seen this thread till now...lol~ Anyway, the majority of my gaming history is based on TvT...but...here's my advice:

1) vs Protoss: Vultures + Tanks + Turrets push, also called a tank push (NOTE: you really need to be adding more and more pieces to the push at a constant rate, becuz believe me, i've been in a game where my half-of-the-center-area-tank-push in LT got squashed by supposedly 5 groups of dragoons and (shuttled)zealots. Golis > Carriers OR Wraith > Carriers, whichever u prefer.

2) vs Zerg: Bionic (w/ tanks), also known as M+M, but with tanks and vessels. This strategy is probably the most common and strategic way of playing a TvZ game. However, u may see wraith rushes or bunker rushes once in a while, but not often. Sometimes, tanks may not be needed...but then u would need a LOT of vessels providing DM and irradiating lurkers/mutas (NOT ULTRAS!!).

3) vs Terran: My favorite;). 2 common ways are Tanks + Golis (w/ drop) and Tanks + Wraiths. In a TvT late game, BCs are often used. In other times, nukes may come in (but that's another story). You could also contain the enemy at early game so that u make sure he only gets out by drop.

That's all i can think of right now...but i'll give u feedback later on if i think of anything good ;).