Ffa Bgh

[AndyWiggn]

This is the only type of game I ever play anymore. I would like to know if anyone else has any thoughts on these. (This is Free For All on Big Game Hunters)

All the posts I see anywhere deal with normal maps or "fastest".... which I don't believe deserves acknowledgement. There's a great deal of strategy involved in FFA BGH's or even 2v2v2v2 BGH's. It's a different kind of strategy as is required in normal maps... not saying it's better or worse, just different strategies, different skills. I'm curious if there's anyone out there who has done a lot of work in these. If there's interest, I can post strategies for these.

~AndyWiggn

[Cpt.Chronic]

I played a ffa on BGH the other night. It wasn't very fun because everyone has so many units off of just one base and then they just turtle. If you go to attack someone and plan on winning the attack you literally have to use your entire army, which leaves you completely open for a counter attack.

[AndyWiggn]

Well, that's where the strategy comes in. Do you really need your entire army? And can you defend with minimal forces? Massing is a strategy on bgh.. but that's not to say the only counter for it is massing. There's a thousand ways to kill 200+ units with 12 in this game. That's kinda the whole point.

[Sikawtic]

What's one way you can kill 100 mutalisks with 12 units?

[Cpt.Chronic]

What's one way you can kill 100 mutalisks with 12 units?
10 archons and 2 high templars with with the energy upgrade (3 storms each) would probably do the trick.

[AndyWiggn]

What's one way you can kill 100 mutalisks with 12 units?

Toss: 2 arbs, 2 temps, 8 sair... and that's overkill. Stasis - stasis -storm storm- sairs clean up. when the rest unstasis, you can just storm storm storm storm while the sair finish them off, or if you feel that's too many stasis again.

Zerg: 2 defiler, 4 devs, 6 hydra... That depends on how clumped they are and you will probably lose some of your base before they are dispatched. But you swarm once with the defiler, wait for the second when they're all clumped and attacking the hydra before the opponent is able to pull them all off and plague plague... should cover most of them unless they're all spread out, when they stray away from the swarm, attack with devs, one hit, run with devs, pull them back over the swarm, attack again with devs once they're over the swarm. Swarm again if neccessary.

Terran:
with overlords: 2 sci vessels, 2 BC, 8 gols
without overlords: 2 sci vessels, 10 wraith
irradiate as much as possible, (spreading it out, making sure nothing is taking the effects of irradiate more than once or else it's wasted) clean up with the rest.

It's funny you should ask that. Before they patched last night I was stuck on thinking of how to stop infinity muta from that muta morph hack. I had a few ideas but I still think it would have just delayed.

Oddly terran was the race I had the most success countering infinity muta with. I held them off for a very long time with 5 sci vessels, 12 wraith and maybe 20 marines with medics. In the end though it only delayed. The sci vessels and wraith ran out of energy, and my mm alone just weren't enough. muta are a joke to counter, but infinity muta... joke's on me.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Toss: 2 arbs, 2 temps, 8 sair... and that's overkill. Stasis - stasis -storm storm- sairs clean up. when the rest unstasis, you can just storm storm storm storm while the sair finish them off, or if you feel that's too many stasis again.

Zerg: 2 defiler, 4 devs, 6 hydra... That depends on how clumped they are and you will probably lose some of your base before they are dispatched. But you swarm once with the defiler, wait for the second when they're all clumped and attacking the hydra before the opponent is able to pull them all off and plague plague... should cover most of them unless they're all spread out, when they stray away from the swarm, attack with devs, one hit, run with devs, pull them back over the swarm, attack again with devs once they're over the swarm. Swarm again if neccessary.

Terran:
with overlords: 2 sci vessels, 2 BC, 8 gols
without overlords: 2 sci vessels, 10 wraith
irradiate as much as possible, (spreading it out, making sure nothing is taking the effects of irradiate more than once or else it's wasted) clean up with the rest.

It's funny you should ask that. Before they patched last night I was stuck on thinking of how to stop infinity muta from that muta morph hack. I had a few ideas but I still think it would have just delayed.

Oddly terran was the race I had the most success countering infinity muta with. I held them off for a very long time with 5 sci vessels, 12 wraith and maybe 20 marines with medics. In the end though it only delayed. The sci vessels and wraith ran out of energy, and my mm alone just weren't enough. muta are a joke to counter, but infinity muta... joke's on me.

I doubt those terran or zerg counters would work, and if the zerg has just a few scourge then the terran counter definetly wouldn't work and neither would the protoss counter. Actually, I doubt the protoss counter would work in the first place because the mutas would kill the arbs within seconds.

[AndyWiggn]

I doubt those terran or zerg counters would work, and if the zerg has just a few scourge then the terran counter definetly wouldn't work and neither would the protoss counter. Actually, I doubt the protoss counter would work in the first place because the mutas would kill the arbs within seconds.

Muta are paper... you don't think you could stasis more than half of the muta before they kill your arbs? Your arbs will die, I'm assuming a reaction time of faster than 3 seconds per click. Queue them to stasis then run to your base.

12 units as zerg was a little silly to begin with, esp since hydra pop out so fast.

I'm pretty confident they would work... and if you want to add scourge, why not add queens that will brood your temps. He said 100 muta, period. But the more scorge, the less muta, and I'm presuming you're not holding your sci vessels out where they're easy targets. They should be safely tucked behind your units, so if scourge came first, as they most likely would since they move faster than muta, your units would kill them. if they came after the muta, you'd have enough time to get a some irradiates off. Split them, that's why you have 2, make them harder to catch. And yeah, I dunno what you've got against the zerg one... you'll likely lose your devs, but not before they spore the muta so your hydra can kill some while the rest make their way to quickly 1 hp...

But hey, if you want to try and poke holes, how about we comment on the fact that archons will get right up under the muta to attack, so you're probably gonna be storming your own units. yow!

[AndyWiggn]

That's a shame that no one around here plays this game type. It's definately the most difficult game type to win and requires much more in-depth strategy and countering techniques than a normal sc game. I find it shocking that no one in the big-talker arena has any experience with it. Was hoping to get some intelligent discussion out of this thread. But in a game where any decent player gets ganged 2+v1, I can see why you guys would shy from it. Maybe you're worried about your record or maybe you just can't stand to lose, but if you ever want to be really good, get good at these. Taking on multiple players at once might sound stupid to you. "How could you possibly win against 2 decent players?" The secret is you don't have to be better than them at starcraft. There's more to this game than the game. I don't think any of you get that.

[Cpt.Chronic]

You're the only one that doesn't get it. Stop talking as if you use more startegy and that the reason noone plays it is because they're scared or that they can't possibly figure out how to stop all those units. Let me put it put it in very simple terms:
MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK. MONEY MAPS SUCK.

[AndyWiggn]

Heh, you're so obscenely predictable... so angry at the thought that you don't know everything. Where does anger come from again? Ah yes. I remember..

I know, you've been playing for years, it's near impossible to accept that there's more to the game than your normal map world. Hard to believe that you don't know squat about something when you've spent so much time on it. I'm sure your muscle memory is fierce. Your apm skill is certainly not in question. I'm not calling you a dumbass because of any fault in your sc playing ability. I'm calling you a dumbass because you argue like a 10 year old about something you clearly have absolutely no experience with. Go play your muscle memory games and comment in the appropriate threads on them. A closeminded bgh-newbie has no business talking in this thread.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Sigh, that's not anger, it's annoyance. You are annoying. Talking down to people because they don't comment on a newbie game style (ffa on BGH...yes that's right, only newbs play that) and criticizing them for not liking the newbie game style is just ridiculous. You are ridiculous. And like I said before, if you're going to call me a bgh-newbie, you better be prepared to back up your claim or you just make yourself look like an arrogant trash-talking nobody that throws around hollow insults to hide that fact that you are completely talking out of your ass.

[AndyWiggn]

Yet you feel some kind of need to keep posting here. I'd rather this thread be empty than have some newbie trying to flame me because he's annoyed by a thread that has nothing to do with him.

And if you really want to play me in a FFA BGH I play just about every night on useast. You are a newbie to this game type. You're the nobody here.

[Modred]

Flame War!

*Modred gets his fire hose*

And for the record, BGH isn't nearly as bad as Fastest. But of course, everyone already knew that, right?

[AndyWiggn]

And for the record, BGH isn't nearly as bad as Fastest. But of course, everyone already knew that, right?

Yeah, I don't know. I'm beginning to think most people just lump them both into the same category.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Yet you feel some kind of need to keep posting here. I'd rather this thread be empty than have some newbie trying to flame me because he's annoyed by a thread that has nothing to do with him.
Well, I wasn't going to post in here until you bumped this thread with your completely idiotic banter about how FFA BGH is the ultimate game-type and is much more difficult than regular 1v1's on limited resource maps. Just look at all the shit-talk you posted, and you expect me not to reply?

It's definately the most difficult game type to win

requires much more in-depth strategy and countering techniques than a normal sc game
I can see why you guys would shy from it
You know what the difference between 1v1ing on a limited map and playing BGH on a money map is? It's the level of competition. Noone plays FFA BGH competitively, it's just newbies that hope they don't get attacked first so they can mass up a 200/200 army before even considering attacking. There are no FFA BGH leagues, there are no FFA BGH ladders, and the only people that resort to playing them are the people that can't win a 1v1 and has to rely on luck in order to win. The luck that you won't be attacked. The luck that you can just turtle without anyone attacking you (yeah, that shit doesn't happen in a 1v1). And what better map to do that on than a money map where the majority of players suck so much they don't make anything other than zealots, cannons, and carriers.

And if you really want to play me in a FFA BGH I play just about every night on useast. You are a newbie to this game type. You're the nobody here.
Ok, what's your b.net nick so I'll know it's you when I beat you down at your own game?

[AndyWiggn]

a newbie game style (ffa on BGH...yes that's right, only newbs play that)

Seriously, if you want to prove how wrong I am, just go play a FFA BGH and win, and post the replay. You don't even have to play against me. I'm pretty confident you wouldn't stand a chance against 7 random pubs.

Ok, what's your b.net nick so I'll know it's you when I beat you down at your own game?

useast. I'm AndyWiggn. You don't have to tell me yours, it doesn't matter, smurf in the game, go right for me, whatever you want. You won't win.

I'm not confident I'm that good, I'm confident you're that not.

[Alexisonfire]

i <3 it when noobs think there something special because they can beat noobs on money maps ^_^

[AndyWiggn]

i <3 it when noobs think there something special because they can beat noobs on money maps ^_^

Whatever man, you have no experience with this, so you have no idea what you're talking about, but you talk shit. It's like going into the war3 boards and not owning the game and saying "war3 is for newbs". It's a different game. Different skills. You know nothing of it, yet you presume to know everything. Do you understand how completely retarded you sound?

Seriously, if you have absolutely no experience with this, why the FUCK are you even posting here?

This isn't a flame, I'm just asking that you shut the hell up if you don't have any experience whatsoever with this, you sound like idiots and you deter anyone who might have something relevant to say from posting.

[Alexisonfire]

i have friends who play 2v2v2v2 bgh and ffa bgh sometimes i play with them altho most of the time i do some crazy dumb strat like mass nukes or mass science vessels and still win if i don't have 3 people attack me in the first 10 minutes ^_^ because its all luck. and as for the war3 thing u said well war3 does suck hell some of there tops gamers say sc takes more skill then war3

[AndyWiggn]

i have friends who play 2v2v2v2 bgh and ffa bgh sometimes i play with them altho most of the time i do some crazy dumb strat like mass nukes or mass science vessels and still win if i don't have 3 people attack me in the first 10 minutes ^_^ because its all luck. and as for the war3 thing u said well war3 does suck hell some of there tops gamers say sc takes more skill then war3

"Yeah so this one time I played LT and I just massed scvs and won without having to build a factory against my friend who I swear is gosu he's been playing for like 5 years and he said my strat was luck there once was a man from nantuckett I just clicked faster than he did and what do you know I watched some replays and memorized some build patterns but omg thank god he picked toss and I knew the specific build order of TvP for LT or I would have been screwed."

There is some luck associated with these games. Sometimes they're hard, sometimes they're easy. You could get "lucky" in a normal map if your opponent is just a newbie or maybe he sneezed and his APM went down by 5 for a minute or his mom came home and told him to go to bed but he said "no screw you I'm gosu" but in the act of arguing he didn't micro for a second and he lost the game. "you lucky my mom came home just now"

It's just as possible. I'm sorry you're playing against newbies? I dunno, when you play normal maps, do you go out and take on random people? Are those random people good all the time? No of course not, but you play them anyway I'm sure to build up your egos. Do you only play players you know are good? If you're so great, then why aren't the people you play with anywhere near as good as you at a game type you hardly play? I'm sorry your friends are newbs?

You can't play against pubs in a FFA and expect them all to be good if you can't play against a pub in a normal map and expect them all to be good. It's an unfair comparison.

[Alexisonfire]

but ur saying that because u play ffa on bgh ur good and also u playing those same noobs on bgh as i do were not arguing who i play, i play with friend most of them r equal skill few of them are far above me. we r arguing that ffa bgh is a noob game and its a fact bgh is unbalenced map toss can easy win on it due to being able to not have to expo were as zerg has to make more hatchs anyways so there screwed. the whole map is about massing its the only real drop u can do a few drops but 4 of the cliffs arn't big enough to put tanks on and since they don't have to expo all there units are most likly in their base so reavers won't do shit. it doesn't matter argue all u want every person with a brain knows bgh sucks. Also ya there are certain builds people use because the game has been out so long these builds r proved to be the best but they r not the only thing u can do i'v seen reach lose a pvt because he didn't scout well (scouting a nother thing u don't have to do in bgh) so he didn't c that t the t went rines/medics/tanks so he didn't make templar and he got owned (i believe testie did this once too)

[AndyWiggn]

its a fact bgh is unbalenced map toss can easy win on it due to being able to not have to expo were as zerg has to make more hatchs anyways so there screwed. the whole map is about massing its the only real drop u can do a few drops but 4 of the cliffs arn't big enough to put tanks on and since they don't have to expo all there units are most likly in their base so reavers won't do shit.

Wow, that is so wrong I don't even know how to respond. I can see this is completely not worth talking about. You know nothing about this game type and you're not willing to even conceive the possability that you don't know everything. You're a newbie to this. Until you can face that, you'll always be a newbie.

[Seal]

Soloplayer elitism.
FFA is a very different game than 1v1, that is for certain.

Reasons why big FFAs arent so popular:

1. Games are long. Solo play is generally fast, while in FFA you have to kill every single enemy off.
2. More levels of gameplay: If I kill a player, others instantly know that I'm weaker and they abuse that. Expect more than 2-3 players rushing on you if you dare to go on a offensive after hoarding time has passed. Form alliances with other players to bring the stronger foes down, and backstab them before they backstab you. Psychology: "blue is attacking me!!" might help other players decide who to attack. Be it you or blue.

Those two were only examples, but my point stays.

[Alexisonfire]

i know i'm a noob but at least i'm a 1v1 noob. ur a bgh noob which is like 20x worse then what i am. as for ur argument u gave their... well lack of argument i should say i can easy say gG noob u owned urself ^_^

[Cpt.Chronic]

Form alliances with other players to bring the stronger foes down, and backstab them before they backstab you.
Only pussies form alliances in ffa's. It's the most pathetic form of bad sportsmanship. It's "every man for himself," not "every man for himself unless I fall behind then I have to ally with other people because Red player is just too good to beat by myself."

I would say half the public ffa's I play, people know each other in the game and work together from the get-go. And if not, they're all just a bunch of pussies anyway that do exactly what you just said. The only fun ffa's are on limited maps with friends.

[Alexisonfire]

yes a ffa with friends is fun but i would still prefer a good 1v1 with a friend on a good normal map over a ffa anyday tho

[Cpt.Chronic]

yes a ffa with friends is fun but i would still prefer a good 1v1 with a friend on a good normal map over a ffa anyday tho
Oh, for sure. FFA's are just something I play for shits and giggles every once in a while. There's just not enough action and too much defense for my liking.

[Generic_Amateur]

This is the only type of game I ever play anymore. I would like to know if anyone else has any thoughts on these. (This is Free For All on Big Game Hunters)

All the posts I see anywhere deal with normal maps or "fastest".... which I don't believe deserves acknowledgment. There's a great deal of strategy involved in FFA BGH's or even 2v2v2v2 BGH's. It's a different kind of strategy as is required in normal maps... not saying it's better or worse, just different strategies, different skills. I'm curious if there's anyone out there who has done a lot of work in these. If there's interest, I can post strategies for these.

~AndyWiggn

I for one would like to see this type of SC gaming grow and evolve.

1v1 have matured to such an extent that there are well-defined strategies (called cookie-cutters derogatorily by some, but they're the tools of my trade, and there's a certain finesse involved with wielding such cutters against someone else - but I digress) for different maps and match-ups. Personal creativity and innovation is still part of the game, but I daresay that we can all remember, if not look up all of the conventional PvT openings on Lost Temple.

How the strategy is executed is another matter entirely, of course, and relies upon the quality of the player himself.

What if FFA BGH has evolved to the same extent as my beloved Fastest 1v1 Lost Temple? What kind of strategies would be involved? I drool when I watch Nada replays. I cry when I re-watch the Pimpest Plays of the previous years for the umpteenth.

Sadly, I can only imagine how awesome an FFA/ 2v2v2v2 BGH pro-gaming level game will be, as there is such a severe lack of serious players in this genre that its development has barely began.

[/rant]

Now, AndyWiggn, I would like some juicy replays and strats. :3 I may not play these games seriously, but I can appreciate the intricacies involved (or so I flatter myself XD).

[Alexisonfire]

http://www.cyberfight.org/site/news/28804/?PHPSESSID=a8a7608

Theres something no BGH players gets ^_^

[Generic_Amateur]

True, because BGH-esque gaming has barely developed. So much potential! *sigh*

[AndyWiggn]

True, because BGH-esque gaming has barely developed. So much potential! *sigh*

It's been evolving into something for a while. One element that holds it back is the inability of most normal players to even recognize what can be done with it. One of the reasons I started posting in a few places about this is I wanted to bring attention to it. But I'm finding most people hear BGH and they clam up, put their hands over their ears and just shout "lalalalalala".

[Alexisonfire]

well most players know that bgh is an unbalenced $$$ map in which u barely have to micro on to win

[AndyWiggn]

well most players know that bgh is an unbalenced $$$ map in which u barely have to micro on to win

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

[Alexisonfire]

well its true hard to say the maps good for all races

[PeachesAreTasty]

LOL so I got bored today, and after reading tl.net, gg.net, and wgtour.com I decided to visit some of the lesser known sc sites. So I came upon starcraft.org, and got a good laugh reading some of the strategies. I got an even better laugh reading the comments after them! Ok, sorry for bashing starcraft.org, because it's fan fiction section is really good and stands out.

Anyway, then I found a strategy submission written by AndyWiggn. I became interested, because that was someone I actually recognized (aka not a complete newb). I don't think I've gamed much with you, Andy, but I've heard good things about you from cobie.

So that lead me here.

I started playing FFA BGH about 1 or 2 years ago. Before that, I played 3v3 BGH, UMS, and I just started to learn 1v1 non-money. Now, even though I mostly play 1v1's, I still love FFA BGH. Why?

I first found interest in FFA BGH for 2 reasons. First, I hated having newb partners, and in FFAs, no one has any allies (the people who ally each other are newbs anyway, so it doesn't really matter). Second, I played it for the challenge. In 3v3 BGH, there was at most 3 people to kill. However, in a FFA, there are up to 7 other people to fight! Double teaming and different people fighting various other people only contributed to the fun and challenge of it. Sure, I lost many games due to double teaming and fighting multiple people simultaneously, but I recognized that they are bound to happen in an FFA and there's no reason to whine over it.

Since then, I've found that 1v1's are more challenging than FFA BGH, after starting to seriously game non-money (aka playing wgtour/pgtour). However, I still love FFA BGH, simply because it's insanely fun! There are better, bigger, and more frequent epic battles in FFA BGH (due to more money, yet you don't go overboard, like fastest maps), which I find is one thing that makes SC really exciting. In 1v1, the battles aren't as great. Playing terran, in TvZ, you basically just retreat and only engage in a major battle if you're sure you can win; TvP yea, there are big battles, but they always involve the same units every time; TvT, the battles are boring until you get to BCs.

I've also noticed that I always use more spells/spellcasters in FFA BGH than I do on non-money. This may not be the case for the average BGH player, but that's not the point. Also, more than 2 races, and more than 2 people can be involved in the constant action of FFA. Every FFA game is unique and different, and you can't expect the same thing to happen over and over again (like you would in non-money).

If you think BGH is for newbs, shut up, you're an idiot. I dare you to call me a newb and then actually SHOW ME that I am one. Most things that most people say that are bad about BGH is completely untrue - for example, you DO have to expand, and you DO have to micro.

Although Andy, you should try non-money, becausse even though it might not be as fun, it is really challenging, and you won't have to put up with stupid newbs.

I'll post my stategical opinions about FFA BGH later heh.

[Alexisonfire]

ewwww hes a cobie??? thats makes him even worse >< (Mar$ is gay)
P.S BGH sucks (crappy map)

[AndyWiggn]

ewwww hes a cobie??? thats makes him even worse >< (Mar$ is gay)
P.S BGH sucks (crappy map)

lol, I'm not a cobie. I'm just well known.

[PeachesAreTasty]

Ok, now I'll start the discussion that Andy wanted in the first place =P. And BTW, none of this is theorycraft, it all comes from experience. Please don't try to argue with me using theorycraft.

I guess there are 2 ways to play an FFA. One way would be to D up (like mass D), take your natural, mass, and scout to keep an eye on who appears to be the strongest. After some people died and when you reach 200 supply, you can try to take out the strongest guy (especially if he's fighting someone else).

For terran, it's pretty obvious how to turtle up. I would advise massing BCs and tanks, with plenty of sci vessels. If it becomes clear that the only people left are toss who mass carriers, you won't need the tanks, and instead spend the rest of your supply on more BCs or wraiths. Stasis and storm will rape you, so try your best to EMP all arbiters and temps before they can cast their spells. In any case, I feel like terrans are weak in BGH, especially towards late game.

For zerg, you should spore up the edge of your base (like turrets for terran), and at your front, place sunkens, lurks, AND a defiler. Dswarmed lurks is one of the best available defenses available. There is absolutely NO WAY a terran can pass this kind of defense, except to either go around, or somehow kill/emp/irridiate all the defilers and wait for the dswarm to wear out. The only way to kill the lurks would be to irridiate them, but it's insanely difficult to find all of them, especially if there are multiple dswarms over the lurks (this is the only time I would recommend stacking a spell like that). You should also keep a defiler in your main for defense against drops/recall or air.
By the time late game comes, you should invest in ALL hive techs, and try to grab as many expos (for the gas) as you can. Basically, just keep massing anything (hydras, ultras, guards, etc.) and keep attacking. Don't forget to use nydus against other zergs.

For protoss, you can either mass ground, or go carriers with reavers or zeals (reavers if you have a lot of gas, zeals if you don't). Either way, get plenty of arbs and temps. Besides getting cannons everywhere (and keeping a temp at your choke and your main), I would also keep a DA in your main. Recall is always one of the biggest threats you'll face, and feedback is your best weapon against it. An arbiter in your main is also a good stalling measure against enemy air.

So basically, having a lot of D allows you to stall opponents attacking you, giving you time to save your base with your main army (this allows you to attack with all your supply).

However, I don't play that way, because it's really boring. Unless there's someone in the game that I don't like (that I want to kill first), I'll just attack whoever's close to me, then go clockwise or something. I play with minimal D and do a lot of risky stuff, and usually it works out since people rarely rush. By the time it gets to late game, there's usually only 1 other person left, so again, I don't need D.

As terran, I'll usually go 2 rax rine/med rush, so I can kill the guy next to me. From there, I'll expo at their main, then go tank/wraith. Wraith is for carriers and guards. As the game progresses, I'll either switch to mass ground or tank/bc. If there are a lot of toss in the game, I might go straight to mech.

As zerg, I normally 12 hatch expo, then power drone with 3 hatches while teching to mutas. I'll mass muta for awhile, and kill at least the guy next to me (by at least, I mean I usually attack more than 1 guy). I'll quickly expo at their bases, and get as many gas as I possibly can. Then I'll get hive tech for guards, and a bunch more hatches for lings. Later, I'll get all the tech, and might switch to hydras and ultras. If I'm at top left/top mid/bottom left/bottom right, I'll 9 pool to kill the guy next to me with lings.

As protoss, I like carrier rushing hehe. I pylon at 8, expo at 12, then I get like 2 cannons at choke. If I'm scouted, I'll get more cannons (same thing with zerg, if I get scouted, I'll add sunks + lings). I tech straight to carriers, and I'll have 8 carriers fairly fast. Meanwhile, I'll have plenty of minerals so I'll add gates and mass zeals. Carrier/zeal owns all at this time in the game. If I have enough gas, I'll get reavers instead of zeals (but this won't be until late in the game). If I'm at top left/top mid/bottom left/bottom right, I'll zeal rush or goon rush (if they are terran), expo twice, and go mass ground instead. Eventually, I still might have to go carriers.

When there's only 1 or 2 other people left in the game besides me, I start using almost all of the spells and units available in the game. This is when it gets really fun =] I remember one game I had with Wisecrack, where I was zerg and he was toss (come to think of it, I've had many good and crazy FFAs with Wisecrack), he controlled the top left part of the map, and I spent like 15 min trying to break his D of carriers, cannons, reavers, temps, DA, and assorted zeal/goon. I used every single zerg unit and spell there was (except infest cc and infested terrans lol), and he also used many spells/different units, including maelstrom. It was crazy.

Like I said, I take big risks, and since 90% of the time most people are newb and don't attack me (usually they don't even scout me...), it pays off.

ewwww hes a cobie??? thats makes him even worse >< (Mar$ is gay)
P.S BGH sucks (crappy map)

Even though the majority of cobies are newbs, they are certainly better than random pubbies. You're right though, Mar$ is gay.

You probably think BGH sucks because you kept getting owned by BGH newbs... which makes you even worse than a newb.

[Alexisonfire]

well we agree on 1 thing at least mar$ is gay and if i lose on bgh it doesn't matter any time i play bgh i screw around with funny strats like mass vessels then irradating each one and runnign through there scv/drone/probe piles just to c the noob get pissed and even sometimes that beats the pubbies just shows how much bgh players suck

[PeachesAreTasty]

I do that crap all the time in 3v3 BGH with friends. However, if you try that in a FFA, I don't see how you can win. I know the majority of BGH players suck. But that's not to say there are no good BGH gamers either. And also, there are many non-money gamers that suck as well.

[AndyWiggn]

Even though the majority of cobies are newbs, they are certainly better than random pubbies.
Exactly my stance on cobies. That and almost all of them play the same way. Kindof like you described in your post, with no defense.. They're almost always an easy target for one moderate drop that will completely kill them. That's why they tend to whine a lot about "vultching". Because they don't play taking into account other players. So if the game ends up not being full of complete newbs, they end up screwed.

It should be noted I don't have anything against any cobie. (Unless they hack...) I just talk shit in their channel to get them riled up so they'll play better against me. They are better than most pubs.


You probably think BGH sucks because you kept getting owned by BGH newbs... which makes you even worse than a newb.
Heh, the people around here don't take well to the implication that they're not good at something.. even if they've never played it before..

[AndyWiggn]

So I was playing a 2v2v2v2 yesterday and upon their losing, there was a group of players that cried bgh was a newbie map, that the whole game was a newbie game. And it reminded me of all the people posting around here. Because they were just really a bunch of the worst players I'd ever seen. They lost because they had no idea how to play, but their anthem was the same as everyone on these boards. "The map is newbie, money maps are newbie, game type is newbie." I honestly couldn't imagine these players being good in any game type or on any map, but hey, maybe they are.

People that come from normal maps to play these big games are often disenchanted when they lose so completely as can only be described as "rape". I've already determined that the people here don't know the basic mass counters. So you all lose to mass attacks. Losing like that is demoralizing if you consider yourself halfway knowledgable about starcraft. Maybe you have a ladder rating of 1400+ and so losing to 100 goons makes you think "this can't be! I'm better than him! this game must be for newbies".

Normal maps leave a great deal of important skills undeveloped. Like the skill of keeping track of more than one opponent at a time and defending one player while attacking another. Knowing who to attack and who to leave alone. When to talk shit and when to cry. Very few people understand the diplomacy of the game and how to use people, not as "allies" but still as weapons to serve your purposes. That's what makes this game so entirely dynamic. Allying is cheating, but having control over who someone attacks or doesn't attack (without being allied) is skill.

You can play this game type defensive, offensive, or a hundred shades of grey in between.

Newbies do play this game type, but this is not a newbie game. Newbies can win this game type, but that doesn't make it a newbie game. If a newbie wins, then you did something wrong. People who are not better than you at starcraft can beat you out of plumb luck, BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN YOU CANNOT STOP THEM. No one wins on luck alone. To win with luck, it also takes the cooperation of everyone in the game to be oblivious to the newbie being left alone.

It is difficult to find a good spread of good players in these games. That's why I began posting around. To try and locate people who would be capable of playing with the big boys of FFA. As it is now there is an influx of players who have a limited skillset and tend to dominate the game type. On east coast these are called cobies. They dominate because the people in the game let them. They have clan mentality of working together such that only cobies will win the game no matter what.

I'm hoping somoene reading here recognizes there is a challenge in these. There is skill involved and someone good enough can consitantly win these in SPITE of people working together against them.

[Alexisonfire]

i think my friend said it best when he posted this on his site a few months ago

Why BGH sucks:BGH games are just watered down normal games. Watered down macro, nearly no micro, and it's imbalanced to boot.Maps with limited resources are just harder to play in all or most aspects of the game. BGH is poorer, but it can still be complex and it is different. However, for the following reasons BGH players learn less skills from playing the gameOn BGH it doesn't matter if you are "denied expansion" so that strategic part is gone...You don't need to worry about expanding yourself - there is little or no comparison with the opponent's resources and the need to get more..The landscape is uniform - the element of holding a ramp is missing, very little higher/lower ground situationsBecause of pathway structure of the map, it's easier to predict the placement of enemy forces. Because of the said pathways, micro is more limited (flanking, spreading units, surrounding)It is not hard to secure the workers/minerals and make them almost untouchable with cannons turrets/a few unitsBut BGH can still be fun, and I've played with players who suck outside of BGH but on BGH can give a fairly player a run for his money.There are skills in BGH but playing BGH doesn't train them as well as playing non-money maps. A BGHer loses a lot in playing non-money map but a player of standard maps has a more diverse experience and can much more easily adapt"I've always played low-resource maps, but since a few months, on the request of my friends, I've been playing 3v3 BGH with them. At the same time I convinced them to give LT a try. After a few months of play, I'm actually BETTER at BGH than them, while they're still struggling to learn LT. I suppose one way to look at this would be to conclude that LT gameplay incorporates in it everything BGH gameplay has, plus more, thus making it easier for a low-resource map player to adapt to BGH than vice versa. No doubt low resource maps are superior strategically / manual skill wise"

[AndyWiggn]

nearly no micro
While it is true some people do not micro on bgh, it should be noted that if you don't micro on bgh, you're just as newbie as if you don't micro on a normal map. And while you might survive in an 8 player game due to luck, if you do not micro, you cannot beat any decent player.

it's imbalanced to boot.
It is no more imbalanced than any asymetrical normal map. There are drawbacks and advantages to every spot in the game, but you've got a 1/8 chance of getting them. And each spot requires a different tactic. Each spot requires you play slightly different.

Maps with limited resources are just harder to play in all or most aspects of the game.
That can only be said by a newbie who has never played a a real FFA. Again, you think it's for newbies because you lose to newbies. I propose it's harder to play because just being better at Starcraft than someone is not enough to win. You need more skills than just a knowledge of what beats what and an ingrained muscle memory build order and play style.

it doesn't matter if you are "denied expansion" so that strategic part is gone...You don't need to worry about expanding yourself - there is little or no comparison with the opponent's resources and the need to get more..
Yes, the game doesn't end just because you accomplished ONE aspect of the game. Owning the map is very important, but just because you get a player into one base doesn't mean you automatically win. The game isn't that SIMPLE. In BGH you need both resource management AND the ability to actually beat the other player. This is just a terribly wrong statement. Having 3 bases and having one are completely different things in BGH. Someone with that much space and resource power can accomplish far more than someone limited to the income of one base. The resource management is different and because you cannot understand it, you're attacking it as being nonexistant.

The landscape is uniform - the element of holding a ramp is missing, very little higher/lower ground situationsBecause of pathway structure of the map, it's easier to predict the placement of enemy forces. Because of the said pathways, micro is more limited (flanking, spreading units, surrounding)
Because of the lack of higher ground lower ground situations terrans lose what I'm sure some realize is their reason for being somewhat overpowered in normal map situations. They're brought down a notch. And I'm sure there's just as much flanking/spreading units/surrounding possible in bgh than any other map. The thing you're referring to is the fact that most people don't. Newbies get enchanted by the idea of massing and forget there are more aspects to the game than just rushing in full force. But any real player knows you have to use tactics if you don't want to fight a 1:1 battle. Ramming 2 armies head to head happens, but it is often a stupid waste of time and resources. Something important to mention is that the game is only as good as the players playing it. If you are unable to use tactics and strategies in a game with more resources, that is soley because YOU are unable to. It does not preclude the use of them.

It is not hard to secure the workers/minerals and make them almost untouchable with cannons turrets/a few units
If by that you mean it's not "easy" to do a panzy drop and ruin an economy, then yes. You have to plan your attacks better. Use things like dweb, nukes, swarm, distractions. To say it is untouchable is to say YOU are unable to touch it and need some practice.

I've been playing 3v3 BGH with them
3v3 BGH is not the same thing as FFA. 3v3's are just a completely different animal. Because it is a shorter game, you don't get into the tactics longer games with multiple teams provide. Tactics you've probably never experienced. Killing one team, one person is a different thing than killing 7. In many ways it is much harder, in some ways it can be easier. But it does require skill in order to accomplish it with any amount of frequency.

At the same time I convinced them to give LT a try. After a few months of play, I'm actually BETTER at BGH than them, while they're still struggling to learn LT. I suppose one way to look at this would be to conclude that LT gameplay incorporates in it everything BGH gameplay has, plus more, thus making it easier for a low-resource map player to adapt to BGH than vice versa. No doubt low resource maps are superior strategically / manual skill wise"
Saying you're good at BGH and saying you're good at FFA BGH would be complete different things. There are elements of strategy that you have no concept of if you've never played it.

But a game in general is only as good as the people playing it. If you're a newbie, and your opponent is a newbie, then hell yeah, it'll look like a newbie game to you. If you get raped by something that isn't possible in a normal game, you're likely to cry "unfair" or "lame" because you know you're good at normal games, for you to suck at something in Starcraft, the knee-jerk reaction is to blame the map or the game type. Thinking that maybe you are the newbie is not easy for big headed normal map people to accept.

[Ultimo]

FFA is a diverse gameplay from melee, that's all I have to say.